The Freshman Foundation® Podcast

FFP 86: What Happens When Young Athletes Stop Fighting Their Insecurities?

Episode Summary

What happens when athletes stop fighting their insecurities? In this conversation, sports psychologist Callum Gowling joins me to explore how acceptance and honesty can transform performance. We discuss why “just relax” is empty advice, how the 3 B’s — body, breath, and brain — help athletes stay composed, and why true confidence begins with embracing, not erasing, self-doubt.

Episode Notes

Free mental performance tips for young athletes, parents, and coaches:
👉 https://michaelvhuber.com/newsletter

Work with me:
👉https://calendly.com/michaelvhuber/mike-huber-15-minute-meeting-clone

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

00:00 – Introduction
02:00 – Why insecurity is part of every athlete’s experience
06:00 – How coaches and parents unknowingly reinforce doubt
10:00 – The problem with “just relax” and other empty advice
14:00 – Why bravery matters more than fearlessness
18:00 – The “3 B’s”: body, breath, and brain as anchors under pressure
22:30 – How Callum’s tennis journey shaped his work with athletes
27:00 – Preparing for failure: why athletes need to expect adversity
31:00 – The role of acceptance in emotional control and performance
36:00 – Why environment and culture fuel insecurity
40:30 – What “Liquid Sports Psychology” really means
44:30 – Callum’s advice for every young athlete: “You’re not alone.”

🧠 SHOW NOTES

In Episode 86, I sit down with Callum Gowling, founder of Liquid Sports Psychology in the U.K., to explore why confidence doesn’t come from fighting insecurity — it comes from accepting it.

We discuss the false promise of “mental toughness,” why advice like “just relax” can do more harm than good, and how athletes can learn to manage their body, breath, and brain when pressure hits.

Callum also shares how his own tennis career and personal insecurities shaped his mission to normalize the emotional side of sport — reminding athletes, coaches, and parents that everyone feels fear and doubt.

If you’ve ever wondered how acceptance can actually enhance performance, this episode will challenge how you think about confidence.

🤝 CONNECT WITH CALLUM GOWLING

Instagram: @liquidsportspsychology
Website: (Add when available)

💬 CONNECT WITH MICHAEL HUBER

Website: https://www.michaelvhuber.com
Newsletter: https://michaelvhuber.com/newsletter
HS to College Transition Preparation: https://michaelvhuber.com/course
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michaelvhuber
X: https://x.com/mhubercmpc
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thefreshmanfoundation

Episode Transcription

Michael Huber (00:01.933)

Hey Callum, how are you sir?

 

Callum Gowling (00:04.952)

Really good, thanks Michael. Good to see you.

 

Michael Huber (00:07.567)

Good to see you too. Thanks for joining me on the podcast. So if you're listening, I reached out to Callum based on the stuff he puts out on his Instagram and he puts out great sports psychology videos. I was a follower. became a fan and I decided that I want to reach out and have him on the podcast because I think he has a lot of valuable stuff to share with the audience. So I guess my first question then is, like, how did you start making those videos? What inspired you to put them out there?

 

Callum Gowling (00:38.482)

It was really to try and kill two birds with one stone. I spend a lot of time on the road these days working with athletes. So I do spend a lot of time in my car pulling over at service stations and...

 

I spend the vast majority of my life thinking about some of the challenges that athletes face. So I just thought it was a good way for me. Initially, I saw it as practice to try and develop my own skills of communicating sometimes quite complicated messages in short, sharp bursts, but also...

 

to take away some of the scariness around the subject of sports psychology. think the term itself and a lot of the language in sports psychology turns people off from the discipline. So the aim was really for me to practice communicating in simple terms, but also to get a message out there that sports psychology isn't this scary subject and we're not just working on problems. These are just things that impact on all human beings' lives.

 

So yeah, was really whilst in between, you know, going to meet athletes, trying to practice my own skill of talking in simple terms, clearly and concisely, but at the same time, trying to redress some of the negative attitudes that do exist when we try and go near the topic of talking about mindset or mental skills or psychology. So yeah, started that probably two or three years ago now and like yourself really appreciate your kind

 

Callum Gowling (02:14.84)

words and lots of people have reached out to say similar things that light the messages, light the simplicity of the message and just to shine a light on some things that lots of people are going through.

 

Michael Huber (02:27.545)

Yeah. And I think that that's what drew me to the videos in the first place, which was as a practitioner myself, I think one of the greatest assets we can have is to be able to communicate in a very simple way that's not highly technical or it's relatable. And I think that that's exactly what you're able to do. It's not necessarily highlighting sort of the terminology, the vocabulary or the concepts of the theories. It's how do you connect?

 

that the challenge to the solution, right? And I think there's a lot of clarity in that. And I think that that is a great thing to be able to do. I, you know, there's, some concepts that come out in your videos. You know, I think I mentioned to you kind of ahead of hitting the record button, you know, one of the things that I sort of, you know, was focused it on when I was watching some more of your videos is the concept of insecurity, which really resonated with me as a coach, right? I think in one of the videos you said,

 

Hey, coaches are insecure too. And I feel that, right? Like, am I doing enough to help my athletes? Am I doing the right things? Like, is there more I could be doing? Or maybe there's nothing more I can be doing and I have to just live with the discomfort of that because I can only take it so far. So like, can you talk about that insecurity piece? I mean, where does that like sort of, where does that come in your practice and what does that, is there anything in your experiences that drives like your emphasis on that?

 

Callum Gowling (03:53.774)

Yeah, mean 100%, one of the things I try and bring out when I talk to anybody, I spend most of my time talking to athletes, but I do work with lot of coaches and parents of athletes. But this idea of insecurity, I think one thing we all struggle with as human beings is this lack of certainty, this inability to know for fact that something's gonna work. I think that's a really uncomfortable situation that we all find ourselves in.

 

And I think one of the reasons for my style or tone of messaging is being brutally honest with you, Michael, I spent the vast majority of my life feeling insecure, both as an athlete coming up, then as a coach, as you've alluded to, you know, am I good enough at my job to be able to help these athletes get the best out of themselves? And those two experiences were really powerful for me because it never went away, that insecurity of

 

Am I doing enough? Am I good enough? Do I know enough? Am I doing a good enough job? And I'm 46 now, 46 a couple of days ago. Actually that sensation has never gone away. I still experience that now on a day to day basis talking to athletes. I still want to do a good job. I still want to help and support these people to improve.

 

But even to this day, doesn't matter how much I read around the subject, how heavily I try and qualify myself in a subject, truth be told, I don't know if this will work or not. It depends on so many different moving parts. First and foremost, whether the athlete...

 

listens or respects or my message resonates with them. That's not completely under my control and I think that feeds into a lot of the underlying insecurity that a lot of us face that this isn't a maths equation, it's not 2 plus 2 equals 4.

 

Callum Gowling (05:50.424)

We're going to get a whole host of different answers. And I think for a human being, that's a really uncomfortable situation. And a lot of what I talk about now is, is that reality that it's okay to not know 100 %? Actually, that is normal. But what we can do is we can still go into that situation, believing in ourselves, and we can still feel confident in ourselves, as long as we're not trying to attach it to 100 % certainty to achieve an outcome. yeah, insecurity is something I'm very open

 

honest about in my own life and the more I talk about it the more the person sat in front of me I see their face soften I see their body language relax when they hear someone say something similar and they will invariably say I'll thank God someone said that because I don't feel a hundred percent in control of this right now but I feel like I should and that's a really difficult internal conflict for a lot of athletes or human beings in general but in in our case athletes to try

 

I've always drawn heavily on the honesty and the reality of the journey rather than trying to sell this idealistic version that we're all bulletproof and super confident. I don't think that's reality.

 

Michael Huber (07:02.968)

haha, yeah

 

Yeah, you know, and I think, I mean, again, a lot of so much of what you said resonates with me as a practitioner and certainly as a human being. But I think I fight the urge as as a, as a mental performance coach to buy into that narrative about, we should, I should be able to help this athlete believe they can become bulletproof, right? A good sort of, you know, catch all term. Like, what am I doing wrong? Like, why can't I

 

And I have to always come back to the realization like that's just not, it's not possible. mean, you you could be bulletproof in your ability to, you know, address, feel like you can handle any situation, but the results are not going to be perfect. And the environment's certainly not going to be perfect during your control. So it's like, can I be accepting, right? Acceptance is something that you talk quite about, right? I'm in this situation. I have to accept it is what it is.

 

Now what can I do to move myself forward through the situation versus being like, nothing's wrong. I'm completely, you know, I'm completely, you know, protecting myself. It's just not the way it, not the way it is. And I know like you have a background as a athlete, as a tennis player. like, and I never played any individual sport and I never played tennis, but like how much of that does, does that inform your work in terms of your own athletic experiences?

 

Callum Gowling (08:32.11)

It's a huge part of it, you know, and I'll be honest with any athlete I talk to, I had a career in tennis. came through the junior ranks. I played into my early adulthood and I wanted to be like many a professional. Truth be told, I wasn't good enough, but I grew up struggling.

 

with individual sport, struggling with pressure, struggling with how to get the best out of myself when it felt in my own mind like now it really matters. Today is the day you've got to perform. whilst I make no...

 

effort or pretense that I was really good at that when I was young. I was mentally strong. I was the guy you could rely on. I wasn't and I've got no shame or embarrassment in admitting that but what that did give me through my tennis journey was whilst I wasn't the best mentally I grew up with a

 

Michael Huber (09:16.046)

Ha

 

Callum Gowling (09:30.974)

I raise a sharp understanding that this stuff matters because I feel like it's the thing that holds me back and as I said to you before Michael, I'm 46. Yes, the world has evolved and our application of sports psychology has improved but not by much, by...

 

three, four percent in that time period. We are light years behind where we need to be. But what that journey as a junior tennis player into early adulthood did teach me was it matters. It's really important. I was, you know, I will be able to admit I was a good player. You know, I had a lot of people telling me I had talent and I had skills.

 

but I could never access it when it really mattered and that was upsetting, that was frustrating, that filled me with anger when I was younger. But what I was also learning exactly at the same time was, wow, if you could be the person who could unlock the potential that we have mentally, you could be a really dangerous athlete on this earth and be very successful.

 

So yeah, was actually again my own insecurities and flaws and weaknesses that have actually in part led me to this stage of my life now where all I want to do now is go back and help other athletes who

 

will no question be feeling exactly the same as I did because whilst we are all unique and individual, we all share a hell of a lot of similarities and there's a lot of young athletes, know, and I say young, I mean, you know, early stage professionals as well who they know they're good, but they really don't feel confident and they feel like they should. And until someone actually shines a light on it and says, you know what, it's okay to feel like that, actually that's the norm, how you're feeling. You don't need to hide from it.

 

Michael Huber (10:55.138)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (11:22.402)

and run away from it, but if you do work on it, just like anything, you can improve and get better at it. So yes, my tennis journey has hugely informed everything I do and I talk about nowadays.

 

Michael Huber (11:22.701)

Yeah.

 

Michael Huber (11:35.501)

Yeah. And I guess I'm curious and I almost asked this question, you know, in a way where I feel like I know what the answer is going to be, but I feel like it's necessary to ask it. How much of what you just described do you think has to do, like we're insecure to begin with, Our biological sort of wiring is that to fear uncertainty, to be insecure, but how much do you feel like the environment, right? The people around the athlete.

 

are making that even more difficult. The messaging, the shoulds, the justs, right? How much of that makes it hard for that three to 4 % improvement to not be greater? Because I feel like that's it. I think there's just a lack of information where the language and the messaging is still such that it reinforces that discomfort because people are trying to either mask it or they're just saying the things that are making it harder to accept.

 

So like how much are you saying maybe take your own working experience like in terms of dealing with the voices around the athlete?

 

Callum Gowling (12:42.958)

you're talking my language precisely there Michael is you know look culture environment it's more than half the battle I don't know what percentage we put on it but it's more than half

 

Michael Huber (12:45.942)

you

 

Michael Huber (12:53.656)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Callum Gowling (12:56.3)

because yeah, I still cringe to this day. People in pretty authoritative positions who should know better. And I hear the advice that I'm feeling really nervous, I'm really worried about this performance. relax, just believe in yourself. And I can't stand that advice because all that does is diminish everything that that athlete feels in the moment. Just relax, just calm down.

 

Well, come on, if it was that simple, we'd all just do it, wouldn't we? But because we're scared to talk about the topic of, yeah, look, it's normal to be nervous. It's normal to feel scared. It's normal to doubt yourself. Because we're so scared to have that conversation, we opt for the tried and tested, really simplistic. you'll be okay. Don't worry about it. You're really good. You've trained well. You'll be good on the day, which I understand, look, some athletes need that.

 

Michael Huber (13:26.595)

Yes.

 

Michael Huber (13:39.054)

Hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (13:56.096)

and that is reassuring for them. They just need that boost, that lift. Definitely, there are some athletes who that will serve the purpose. But it's my experience. Day to day, I will speak to people who are really thinking, everyone's telling me I should relax and I should believe in myself. That's what everyone's telling me, but I don't.

 

Michael Huber (14:05.976)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (14:21.876)

So what the hell's wrong with me? Because it's all anyone's telling me. Relax, calm down, believe in yourself. Don't worry about it. That's all the advice I'm getting, but I feel all of that. So there must be something wrong with me because I'm getting advice from some really, you know...

 

Michael Huber (14:32.226)

Yeah. Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (14:41.174)

Powerful people in this world, you know in in high positions of authority and I'm getting the advice from them It's clearly me. I've clearly got a problem and I think then we open up this massive can of worms where Every time the athlete hears relax calm down. Just believe in yourself It's further evidence to that athlete that there's something wrong with you because the advice from the people in authority

 

Well, I'm trying to listen to them, but it's not happening. And that was me as a youngster. You know, I said, yeah, sports psychology has evolved. Mental skills training has evolved. But actually our application in day to day reality of sports hasn't really evolved that much because that advice is still out there and still very prominent. So we've got this whole host of athletes thinking, okay, well, elite sport clearly isn't for me. I'm obviously just weak.

 

mentally because I can't do it and I just think that does these athletes such a disservice and you know I'm 46 as I've said three times now that's true that's too late for obviously

 

Michael Huber (15:48.942)

haha

 

Callum Gowling (15:53.504)

career in sport to start to piece it together and say, actually, I haven't changed since I was 13. Really, I'm still that insecure person. But what I have got better at, and you've mentioned the word, Michael, is I accept it. That when I compete or when I do a podcast or when I deliver a presentation, I'm still scared. I'm still nervous. I still think, what if I make a mess of this? I have all of those thoughts, but now I don't question it. kind of realize it's just me being me, but I know how to

 

Michael Huber (15:56.706)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (16:23.478)

deal with it. Whereas previously I would be panicking thinking, why do I feel like this again? Here we are all over again, I'm trying to listen, I'm obviously just not good enough and I can't do the things that other people do. So we've got this massive conflict and disconnect between the advice the athlete receives, how they're feeling and in actual fact the advice is generally overly simplified, pretty hollow and it's just a sign that that person giving that message

 

really doesn't know what else to say and they just want this conversation gone. So, don't worry about it, you'll be fine. Now we've got a problem.

 

Michael Huber (17:00.482)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you hit the nail right on the head, especially with that last point, right? Like the, the people who are coaching and the people who are parenting and I'm a parent and I've been a coach, I know those are really difficult jobs to do, but they're only doing right. What they know, which is pretty limited. Right. And so like, that's the thing I'll say to an athlete sometimes is like, I'm how many times has a coach told you to just focus or just relax, but nobody actually,

 

Shows you how or why why am I taking a deep breath? How do I take a deep breath? What does it do for me? What's it gonna allow me to do next if? Whether you're 16 or 26 or whatever if someone explains to you how to do something and why you're doing it You're much more likely to access it right versus. Hey, just go do this. I don't know how to do that It's actually making me more stressed because I don't know how to do it and now it's compounding the problem right and so it's

 

You know, it's being able to show those people, right? And then some of this is about the education process for the adults, you know, for the coaches and the parents so that they can help those people around them by communicating that message. And sometimes those people don't want the message, which I think is actually quite much more common. Like they're not looking to get my advice, right? Like they, they, know what I'm doing. I'm the parent. I don't need you, which is fine.

 

But I think that that's part of the challenge is like, if someone's not motivated to get better at this particular element of their job, there's, can't force it. You can't make them do it.

 

Callum Gowling (18:39.32)

Yeah, absolutely, totally agree. And you know, there's still so much work to be done in this area of, whether we call it training or coaching, within sports. You know, we're all well-versed that there's four key areas that an athlete needs to be good at, physical, technical, tactical, mental.

 

Michael Huber (18:44.534)

Mm-hmm.

 

Michael Huber (18:51.608)

Mm-hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (18:59.598)

The mindset, the mental is always everywhere I've come across and across the world I work in different academies in different countries. It's the poor relation because the physical and the technical, that's quite easy to quantify. It's very easy to see and it's very easy to reflect at the end of a training block. Okay, we've got a second quicker. We're 10 % more consistent than we were previously. So I understand those things are important.

 

to be good at a sport? Of course they are, you've got to be good at your chosen sport. We get it. But I think sometimes we're opting for the numbers because it's easy to quantify, it's easy for me to justify my own existence and say look what I've done in this six weeks, look what we've achieved and how much better you are. Brilliant. How do we quantify?

 

Michael Huber (19:47.427)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (19:50.87)

I feel little bit calmer under pressure. stand a little bit taller. I believe in myself a little bit more. It's not quite as easy to quantify and I think that's why these conversations get pushed to the side. And for all parties, it's like, well, we'll get to that eventually. And I think the athlete doesn't receive the support in that area. But as you say, the people who are responsible for giving the support, they shy away from that area as well because it's really difficult

 

Michael Huber (20:01.806)

100%.

 

Callum Gowling (20:20.854)

to quantify as I'm sure you feel on a day to day basis, I do. How do I know that I've been effective? How can I really say, right, we've done six months together, what have we achieved? Well, I feel a little bit calmer and I think a little bit clearer under pressure. Well, that's ground breaking stuff.

 

But is it as cool? Is it as sexy as, yeah, but I'm hitting the ball 20 miles an hour harder and I've shaved a second and a half off my personal best. We go with the headlines. We go with the obvious, the smack you in the face stuff. And these conversations just get pushed further and further down the line because we're all stuck in this horrible state of trying to justify our existence, prove our worth and say, look, I did this and look at the outcome.

 

Unfortunately, the mental side doesn't really have those figures. So I think we fall on our sword too often and we just delay it because, look, we can get some easy wins earlier on in these areas. And it's the athlete who's then left suffering because there's areas that they haven't developed which, once they reach a certain level, you know as well as I do Michael, it's way more about that.

 

than it is about your ability to squat an extra five kilograms in the gym or whatever else it might be.

 

Michael Huber (21:44.611)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly that resonates with me. You know, I always come back to like, you know, how do you measure the results? And I have to remind myself, especially as somebody who really focuses on individual private practice, like if my client is telling me that they are feeling better, do they feel more capable and more resilient and more confident that that is good enough, right? Like, because they're the only ones that truly knows

 

that, right? And like, you know, you can observe it or you can measure it from the outside. And I think that is part of the problem. You kind of hit on that with proving, right? Like, well, if I feel good and confident and better about myself, if I can't show that to somebody else, does it, does it even exist? Is it even real? Right? Because my coach isn't recognizing it. They're not noticing it. I'm not getting the feedback, but I feel it. But maybe I'm not, maybe I'm misinterpreting this, right? Like someone has to see it.

 

in order for it to be valid and that's not true. And I think that comes back to acceptance, right? Can we settle ourselves? Can we accept that we are in command of ourselves and of our thoughts and our feelings and not worry about where other somebody else's opinion of that's going to be? That's a really hard place to get to for any human being because of the way our minds, our minds work. There's something else that you said in a video that I kind of wanted to hit on because I think it's wonderful and I'm

 

I'm a big fan of it and it's something I would talk about as well. It's like, how do you get clear on how you use your seconds, right? Every moment counts. How are we using our seconds? So like, how do you, how do you apply that in your work?

 

Callum Gowling (23:29.656)

Good question. I guess the simple model I try and get athletes who I work with to stick to is, there's so much, most of an athletic performance is beyond your control. You know, I'm a really, I'm becoming less and less.

 

Less and less I like the cliche, control the controllables, process over outcome. I get it, it's useful, but I think too often we use them as the fix. As you mentioned earlier, Michael, it's, how are you gonna do that? What things are you in control of? And I say there's three things to an athlete. There's three things beginning with the letter B. One is your body language. You can be...

 

the most nervous, most angry person on the face of the earth, you can still control your body language. It's hard, it's going to take some practice, but you can do that. You can still control your breath. You can be so stressed, so anxious, but you can give yourself a moment just to slow that breath down. You can do that. It's not easy, but you can do it. And then finally, brain.

 

You can be very clear, what are you going to do in the next five seconds? What's your next step? It doesn't have to be complicated. It could just be, I'm going to take a little bit longer. But to break things down that in that moment of crisis, in that moment of panic, and many people in the sport, I spend a lot of time in, they call tennis matches crisis management. There's a crisis happening almost every minute. There's something going wrong. So in the moment of crisis, are you going to rush, take less time,

 

Start the next point because you're just desperate to get on with it and busy your mind so you're not worrying. And we see a lot of that with, particularly with young athletes, but often with very, very good players. And all human beings, I think, the more stressed we get, we go on fast forward. We start to rush and the decisions just get worse and worse. So if we can break that down and say, right, there's three things right now under your control. One is your body language. What's it like? How are you going to stand? How are you going to walk through this moment? Your breath.

 

Callum Gowling (25:36.834)

How are you going to breathe? Have we spoken about in advance? I don't expect you to become a breathing expert right now, but you talk to someone like me to say, well when the pressure hits, when that crisis happens, what are we going to do with your breath? Because there's things you can do that are going to help you relax, calm, focus. And once we've done those first two B's, your body language and your breathing, well now I've got a much better chance of my brain being able to focus on something helpful.

 

Michael Huber (25:50.403)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (26:05.59)

my brain being able to simplify the problem and give myself one little step or one little task to do in the next five seconds. And generally speaking, if we can get well-trained and consistent with manage your body language, manage your breath, manage your thoughts, if we can get well-trained and disciplined with how we use that moment of spare time.

 

Well then we start to, as we've spoken about Michael, we start to walk a little slower, act with a little...

 

composure, think a little bit more clearer, which again, right back at the start of this conversation, it doesn't guarantee you nail this performance and you win. It doesn't guarantee that, but it gives you a much better chance and it certainly gives you a much better chance of maintaining a decent level of performance. Because one thing that is pretty well proven through sports psychology is the moment you start rushing and tensing and making bad decisions, well, again, it's not a guarantee, but there's a

 

Michael Huber (26:55.128)

Mm-hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (27:06.66)

pretty strong chance that performance is going downhill and downhill rapidly. So we try and put in a bit of a pause, manage your body language, manage your breath, what's your next step? So you manage your thoughts. So breaking it down and helping the athlete talk through in advance. And again, we're all different. I spend a lot of my time talking to athletes about what could go wrong today.

 

Michael Huber (27:25.069)

Yes, preparing.

 

Callum Gowling (27:32.271)

That's not because I'm trying to take their confidence away from them. We talk about the positives, we talk about their strengths, but I'd be naive and I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I said, you're good to go because you and I both know, Michael, the performance starts, you get a bad decision, you make an awful mistake, you get wronged by your opponent, something's gonna happen and if you're not prepared for it, it could tip you out of balance and now you've lost your mentality.

 

Michael Huber (27:59.555)

Yes.

 

Callum Gowling (28:02.224)

We do spend a lot of time talking through, mentally preparing for the bad situation, the challenge, and okay, it's not if it happens, it's when it happens, what are you gonna do? And I'm trying to steer the athlete to, well, okay, this is how I'm gonna be with my body, this is what I'm gonna do with my breath, and this is what I'm gonna try and think about for the next five seconds. That's my pre-planned response for the chaotic situation that we know is about to happen.

 

Michael Huber (28:08.471)

huh.

 

Michael Huber (28:25.952)

Yeah. Yes.

 

Michael Huber (28:32.202)

Exactly. And that's exactly what I try to do with my athletes. you know, you're in the United Kingdom, I'm in the United States. I focus on different sports than you do, but it's the same idea. A pitcher in a baseball in America is very similar to a tennis player. There's a, there's a, there's a clear pause in between points and the match doesn't start until that tennis player tosses the ball.

 

The baseball game doesn't start until the pitcher throws is ready to throw that pitch. So what are you doing in between? Right. And I'm a big believer in let's be ready for when something goes wrong because something always goes wrong. Right. And I think that is hard for people to think about. Right. And I think there is a school of thought. And you know, if I'm giving my opinion, probably incorrectly. So where it's like, well, you don't want to think about the negative, right? Just be positive. It's you're, trying to trick.

 

yourself into something that's not realistic. And now all of a sudden there's just all this confusion. And then that's when the spiral starts. Right. And now the, the more that the faster that spiral goes and the deeper it gets, the harder it is to dig out. Right. So point by point by point by point, what's the response. Right. And like it's doing those simple things consistently. Cause you're right. They're not easy to do, especially when you're, you're not performing the way you want to in a, in a

 

pressure-filled situation and now you start to spiral into the future of like well what is this going to mean if this doesn't end up the way I want it to you have to bring it back to the moment and say what can I do in this moment I could stand up straight I could take a deep breath I can funnel down my thoughts into how do I execute this next shot that's it that's all I've got in that moment I think that's really hard to do even though it's actually quite simple

 

Callum Gowling (30:26.166)

Again, I say to every athlete I talk to, everything I'm about to say to you is easier said than done. And that is the reality and I think that's why so many people are also, and I would put coaches in this category a lot of the time, they just fob it off. We know what you need to do is fine, just do that and you'll be okay. And it is, there's a lot of simple stuff that we need to get good at, but you talk to an athlete, you tell them, here's how we cope with that stressful situation.

 

Michael Huber (30:38.894)

Mm-hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (30:55.948)

Have you got it? Are you clear? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do that on Saturday. Okay, so we speak on Monday. How did it go? it went so bad. It was so stressful. I I forgot it all. I couldn't even do it. Didn't think it was worth doing it. Things were so bad. And yes, that's...

 

That's why I guess the psychology word comes in. We're all human. We're all irrational. We're not naturally logical beings. We're all emotional. The moment that emotion spikes, even to this day, I'm still a little bit petulant sometimes, but I've trained myself not just to snap immediately when I hear something that doesn't really make sense or I don't agree with. I don't just snap back. Like maybe if I was an 11 year old, I might have bit and know, lashed out, but that's what we learn as

 

with age and experiences, we learn how to harness the emotional feelings that we have inside and we start to understand, look, if I act that emotion out, this performance is going wrong. I can't turn the emotion off because I'm an emotional being. Emotions are just there. Another cliche I can't stand, Michael, is...

 

There's a, we have this horrible, consistent trend for trying to get athletes to be fearless. I want you to be fearless out there. I can't stand that phrase because to be fearless would be naive. I was probably fearless at the age of two because I had no idea how things could go wrong. I'd walk across the road without checking each side because I was two. As you get older, you realize, wow, there's a bit of danger out there. Things could go wrong. So this idea of being fearless for me,

 

Michael Huber (32:23.128)

break.

 

Callum Gowling (32:36.652)

is ridiculous. Be brave. Be brave. know, take brave action in the face of fear. I think that's what we're trying to get athletes to be able to do, but do understand that, you could lose today. And I know that's going to hurt your feelings, and I know no one likes to lose, but that could happen.

 

But I don't want you going into this performance oblivious that, it's just not possible I could lose today because now we're creeping over into arrogance or I would say naivety. That's crazy. Why would you not consider the potential negative outcomes today? But don't dwell on them and say, well, this is awful. We're going back again and saying, okay, well, if this happens, what do we do? That's mental preparation. That's being resilient. It's knowing all of the things that could happen and having

 

some kind of mental response that when it happens, I've got a plan. So then we see an athlete being able to cope a little bit more effectively. you know, coping, there's no one perfect way for an athlete to cope. It looks different for everybody. Some people it does show a little bit more facially and they do express some anger, but they know where to go after the anger. They can reset and bring themselves back.

 

Michael Huber (33:30.446)

Yes.

 

Michael Huber (33:51.129)

Well, yeah. And again, I'll come back to acceptance, right? Like those things happen, right? We may make a face. We may say something we disagree with to an umpire, right? We may do something that we don't like, but it's then that recognition of, okay, I did that. I can't get it back. Let's take a pause and start over and be okay with that versus kicking myself or this is just going to get so big. I'm not going to know how to stop the train from

 

rolling down the tracks, right? Like that's that acceptance piece, which I think is just so important for athletes. Hey, I made a mistake, but that's all right. Let's know how to move forward because otherwise it's, it's not going to end well. And I hate to ask this question because you sort of just alluded to it. So I'm kind of going to ask you a question that maybe I probably shouldn't ask, but like, are there things with tennis players specifically like common challenges? know everybody's different.

 

But are there common challenges that you see with juniors in particular that you're sort of see coming up over and over and over again?

 

Callum Gowling (34:56.942)

Yes, yes there are definitely consistent teams. mean the classic emotion control mid-match and you know there is that very famous Roger Federer speech where even someone as good as him, he only won 54 % of the points he ever played in his life. So simple bit of maths. He was losing the point 46 % of the time and you're going to have to learn how to deal with that. And that's Roger Federer. So most other people are going to lose a lot more than that.

 

Michael Huber (35:05.409)

Mm-hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (35:26.69)

disappointment, anger, frustration is baked in to one tennis match. So emotion control is a consistent problem and challenge. I'd say the most consistent one though is the management of expectations. Particularly, I think it's rife across all of...

 

tennis across the world because it is an early specialisation sport. know, these kids are taking tennis very seriously, very young and that brings its own challenges but they are so obsessed and it's harder nowadays with social media and mobile phones with these rankings and numbers and where do I feature, how do I compare with Michael.

 

Michael might live 200 miles away from me, but how are my results comparing to him? And it's so easy to access on the phone. But the expectation side of things is, I speak to so many tennis players and they really struggle to just go on for one tennis match and treat it as a tennis match. It's me versus you. Let's put our game out there and let's see who wins.

 

Before they even step on court, they've played the match probably 50 times. They've gone through all of the worst case scenarios of if I lose to Michael, what's everyone going to say? And what's the selection committee going to do? Are they going to drop me from national selection if I lose to Michael? Because he's a year younger than me and that's not good news. So all of this stuff comes with the player on court.

 

Michael Huber (36:39.854)

Mm-hmm.

 

Callum Gowling (36:58.272)

And then, as we've discussed, they get the magic advice of, relax, just calm down, don't worry about it. So then you've got this horrible situation where the child is totally distracted, not focused on what they're doing, stuck.

 

nervous, stressed and anxious and the feedback they're getting is come on calm down and just enjoy yourself. So there's again they end up in this awful state of not thinking clearly, not knowing how to calm down with all of this expectation that I should be beating Michael because he's younger than me. So then they underperform and then we have the problem of the emotion control during the match where they're not able to actually get things back under control. So a lot of them have lost the tennis match and this is a cliche which I probably

 

Michael Huber (37:29.837)

Yeah.

 

Callum Gowling (37:43.185)

do quite like is they probably lost that tennis match half an hour before they even went on court because their mind was so far away from you know any kind of goal from a coach or even any kind of enjoyment about competition you know I'm really looking forward to having a good game against Michael that's not part of their thinking they're just thinking I hope this guy rolls over and makes it easy for me and when it doesn't they panic

 

Michael Huber (37:47.16)

Yes. Right?

 

Michael Huber (38:08.514)

Right, exactly. Yeah, and I think the word that you didn't use, but I think it was sort of central to what you were saying is, I think I see the same thing is sometimes there's an inability to just compete in the moment, right? Like really experience the joy of competition and be like, hey, I'm going to play this point or I'm going to play this match for what it is. Like I'm to go out there and compete versus all the other stuff that you don't control.

 

and you're worried about all the perceptions out there in the universe that most people don't even care about to begin with. And you're focused on all of that versus, let me just go play this point and be present in this point and try to win this match. Right. Like I think there is that and that happens here. You know, my children play soccer here and like, oh, there, this team is ranked here or this so and so is going to this college. I was like, well, okay, so go beat them. You know, you know, it's like just

 

Callum Gowling (39:02.894)

Yeah.

 

Michael Huber (39:05.994)

just go go do it. And it's again, it's easy for, said it, just go do it. But it's like, I think it's really hard, right? To be able to put yourself into somebody else's shoes and help them see the world or you see the world through their eyes to say, Hey, let's try to find that way for you to relate to this experience. That's going to allow you to get the best out of you. That's a really hard thing for us to be able to do as coaches. And it's also a thing that

 

causes us to be insecure. I should be able to do this better because this is my job and someone's paying me to do this. And what if I don't get the results that they desire? What does that say about me? Like to come back to where we started, like that's the way I feel about myself. Sometimes it's like, you need to be better at this. You need to do more. Why don't you get this right? And I think ultimately what you've said a couple of times is we're, we're emotional beings. We're not rad rational. We're not logical.

 

And we have to accept that and be like, okay, I know what the baseline is. So what am I going to do to counteract the baseline? So it doesn't come back to bite me as much as it could. I'm actually constantly working on that mental side, that emotional side to make sure that I'm always feel like I'm in command of the way I'm able to respond to a situation.

 

Callum Gowling (40:24.886)

yeah 100 % you know

 

Michael Huber (40:26.744)

Couple more questions before we wrap up. So the name of your account, and I assume the name of your business is Liquid Sports Psychology. So where does that come from?

 

Callum Gowling (40:39.054)

So when I was doing my PhD, I came across a sociologist who wrote extensively about the theory of liquid modernity and what it is to be a human being in modern society. And I kind of stumbled across his work, but once I started to read it, I became fascinated and borderline obsessed because...

 

It just resonated with everything I'd ever experienced and all of the data I was analyzing in my PhD at the time is life nowadays is so fast-paced. know, just, I mentioned phones before, you can't keep up with technological advancements and everything that's going on around us. It's so fast-paced.

 

But even with just human beings in general, this instant gratification culture, we have this desire and this demand for improvement and success now. And I've been working really hard for a month. I should be seeing results. And maybe even a month is a sign of patience. We're in actual fact, real growth and improvement is gonna take years, not months. And...

 

the message behind the theory was that life and society is so fast-paced. We are so different now to 50 years ago, 100 years ago where we were a little bit better equipped at working for the long term, working towards a bigger goal, a long-term future. Whereas now it's so immediate, it's so fast-paced and I think...

 

The skill for a human being now is to actually show patience. That is such an undervalued skill nowadays in our society to be able to work really hard without much gain in the short term, but to trust that there's a bigger goal in the future. And liquid modernity is the tendency for society nowadays. Even again in the UK, governing bodies will come up with policies and procedures for training, for talent development procedures.

 

Callum Gowling (42:51.76)

And if we get three years out of it, we're lucky, before someone new comes in, they rip it up and they start again. So all of those people within the system have to quickly...

 

adapt, change their approach, conform to a new set of values and rules and it's so fast-paced and we don't get much time nowadays to actually settle in, find a rhythm and grow and develop at our own rate which is always going to be the key to success. It's always going to be a long-term journey but the society around us is giving us this message that no, it's got to be quicker than that.

 

Michael Huber (43:23.874)

Yeah.

 

Callum Gowling (43:29.578)

If you haven't reached this goal by 13, you're finished. Don't even bother. And that's where we are nowadays. I think, in terms of my own consultancy, so obviously, yes, I use the word liquid because I'm using that in my own world as our ability to adapt to what's around us. You don't have to change fundamentally.

 

What I'm trying to do is help you understand what are your strengths, who are you as a person and as an athlete, and the things around you, they're gonna change constantly and quickly, but you're the same person. So this world that's so fast changing around you, if you can actually get used to looking within and saying, right, there's some stuff going on here that I don't agree with or I don't like or that's really challenging.

 

you bring your gaze inwards and you start to look internally and say, okay, well, what have I got to cope with this situation? What have I got in my, you know, box of tricks? What strengths do I have to cope and adapt to this new challenging situation? So it's our ability to adapt to this fast changing environment around us.

 

Michael Huber (44:35.992)

Exactly.

 

Michael Huber (44:41.838)

I love that. I love it. One last question and I generally ask some form of this question to every one of my guests. what's, if you had to give one piece of advice for a young athlete, what would that piece of advice be?

 

Michael Huber (44:58.752)

I know I struggle with this one too. I struggle with the question myself.

 

Callum Gowling (44:59.212)

long have we got? Have we got another two hours? Can we carry on here?

 

Callum Gowling (45:07.456)

One piece of advice, you're not alone. That would be my advice. Whatever nerves you're experiencing, whatever fears you have, make no mistake about it, the most qualified, most professional, serious looking coach who's bearing down on you saying, you've gotta be stronger, you've gotta be better.

 

they have those same fears, they have those same worries and doubts. We're all the same. Some people package it and make it look different, but don't go away from the fact that, I'm a human being, it's normal to feel nervous, it's normal to doubt myself sometimes, but if I'm putting the work in and I'm training hard, I've got a great chance, and if we can get our, well, if any athlete can get themselves into that state of mind where,

 

Look, it's normal to be nervous, it's normal to have doubt, but I've put the work in and I've got a great chance of being successful as long as I stick to the things that I'm trained for. So you're not alone. Nerves and doubt don't make you different from anybody else. Trust your training and focus on the long term.

 

Michael Huber (46:20.206)

I love it. You're not alone. That's great. Callum, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm sure we could have kept going. So I appreciate you taking the time to have a conversation with me.

 

Callum Gowling (46:31.35)

Absolute pleasure Michael, thanks for inviting me on. I would happily have spoken for another six hours if you'd have had me, but it's always good to talk about this topic and shine a light on it because it's an important topic and from my perspective it's always really inspiring to talk to someone else in the profession who is equally enthusiastic about these kinds of topics. So thank you more than anything.

 

Michael Huber (46:54.072)

Yeah.

 

It was great, Callum, thank you.