How is Carrie Jackson helping athletes build the mental skills necessary to rebound from injuries?
Unfortunately, injuries are a part of the athletic experience. Many athletes go to great lengths to recover physically after a serious injury. However, the psychological recovery from injury may be more elusive.
My guest on this episode, Carrie Jackson, is a Certified Mental Performance Consultant and expert on the psychology of injury. Carrie is the co-author of Rebound: Train your mind to bounce back stronger from sports injuries.
In Episode 23, Carrie talks about her experiences working with injured athletes and teaching the mental skills necessary to cope effectively during injury rehabilitation. She also discusses the impact of injuries on high school athletes going through the college recruiting process and the transition to the next level of athletics.
My suggestion to young athletes is to think about how you can mentally prepare for injuries, which are often inevitable. I would also suggest considering mental skills training to aid in the injury recovery process.
I want to thank Carrie for her kind generosity and the wisdom she shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can learn more about Carrie on her website at https://carriejackson.com or her Instagram @feedtheathlete.
You can learn more about The Freshman Foundation on our website at freshmanfoundation.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back soon for Episode 24!
Michael [00:01]
Hey Carrie, how are you?
Carrie Jackson [00:02]
I'm good. How are you?
Michael [00:04]
I'm doing great. Thanks for coming on to the show.
Carrie Jackson [00:06]
Yeah, my pleasure.
Michael [00:07]
So for those listening to the podcast that don't know you, could you just talk a little bit about your background and how you got into mental performance coaching?
Carrie Jackson [00:16]
Yeah. So I, gosh, I've been in the field for 20 years now almost 20 years, I think. And so I, originally, I was studying psychology. So I was new. I wanted to work with people with human behavior. And I was fascinated with the brain and human behavior. And I thought I wanted to be a therapist, I had no idea we move into the world of mindset training and sports psychology. So I actually graduated. And literally, as I was walking across the stage for my undergraduate, I realized, I don't think I'm supposed to be a therapist. So now what do I do, and I ended up I'm, like any last newly graduated student, I ended up moving to Tahoe to South Lake Tahoe to pursue my own sports. So at that time, I was big into rock climbing, and snowboarding, those were my main sports. And so I just kind of got a chance to go dive into those a little deeper, and kind of and try to figure out what I wanted to do. And during that time, was recognizing my own psychology and the psychology of my friends in those same sports. And, but, but it wasn't until my mom brought home a brochure for a sports psychology program, a Master's program, because she knew I wanted to continue my education. And she brought home a brochure, like, well, she sent it to me, brought it home there, and then send it to me. And she said, Oh, I saw this, and I thought you'd be interested. And I was like, this amazing field of study that I've never heard of. And so I went to the next open house and signed up and the rest was history.
Michael [01:45]
Yeah, I can relate to that.
Carrie Jackson [01:47]
That’s great. Oh, my gosh.
Michael [01:50]
I relate to that. [Inaudible 01:50]? So, um, so obviously, you have a very specific interest in injuries and the psychology of injury. Is there anything like what brought you to that point? Did you have any experience or what got you interested?
Carrie Jackson [02:05]
Yeah, so actually, it was really interesting that my very initial sort of interest in it was personal, as it often is, and I before I came into my studies in graduate school, and sports psychology, I had arthroscopic knee surgery. So I had a knee injury. And I had a really hard time coming back from that, like regaining my confidence, and trusting my knee after that injury, and really struggled with the recovery and pain management, it just was a big challenge. It was my first major injury and the first time kind of navigating that whole process. And then fast forward a few years, and I injured that same knee, again, different injury. But I was in the middle I was I had just finished I think it was I was in the second year of my graduate studies, I believe when it happened, or that it was right in the middle of it. And it's almost as soon as the injury happened. So it was just a fluke, injury during snowboarding. And as they strap me into like the sled to take me down the mountain almost immediate, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna use everything that I'm learning and apply it to injury and my and now my recovery is my sport and everything I'm doing or was doing for my sport, now I need to apply to my recovery. And so I, I just, I can't even tell you the difference between my comeback from the first injury and the second injury was profoundly different, like just phenomenally different, in a way where I was like, Oh my gosh, how are we not giving these skills and these tools to everybody for injury. And so that was a that was a big catalyst for me. And then in the beginning of my career had the opportunity, because of the sport that I was specializing in I was specializing in cycling at the time, you just end up working with a lot of people that are coming back from crashes and coming back from injury. And so then I got the opportunity to apply what I've done to myself to other people and realized Oh, yeah, okay, this is, this is a big deal.
Michael [04:02]
Yeah. So with the second injury was it's just sort of an epiphany like that you had when you were going through it, like as you're coming to them out, you're thinking like, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna do it differently this time around.
Carrie Jackson [04:12]
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I knew immediately that I was going to apply, like, I was going to do it differently. And I was going to really take all this mental training that I was learning about how to apply to optimal performance for Healthy Athletes and apply it to myself in the injury setting. So it was like, Okay, so how do I take self-talk and apply it here? How do we take visualization and apply it here and, and, and just and goal setting and all of those things in and was like, I'm good, let's really do this. And I came back and had my best season ever. It was incredible.
Michael [04:45]
Well, that's, that's right. You're on your own qualitative study.
Carrie Jackson [04:49]
Right I know and I [Inaudible 04:51] won.
Michael [04:52]
[Inaudible 04:52] Exactly. But I mean, you know, if you think about the sports psychology concept, right the first time you sort of looked at something, you know, that was out of your control, and it was a threat. And then you took it into your control and said, you know, hey, this is what I can be responsible for control the controllable. Yep. And using that as a tool for growth. And that's, I mean, that's, that's an amazing thing. Right? And if we can pass that on to other athletes, certainly there's, you know, it makes it helping others is something that's really important to me. And it sounds like it is to you as well.
Carrie Jackson [05:27]
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a tough, you know, with injury in particular, it what was so neat for me to go through was like, I immediately was trying to figure out how can this be an opportunity, and that's not something you usually think when you get injured, and that's a big sort of philosophy, we I, you know, haven't rebound to the book and the injured athletes podcast is, is that okay? So I would prefer not to be injured very strongly, but I am. So what can i how can I use this as an opportunity for growth. And, and it's pretty amazing what you can do when that happens, because, I mean, I've worked with so many athletes now through the injury process, and when they apply their mental training there, then that you have built those tools that are going to continue to serve you once you're back in your sport, or if you have to transition a sport. So it's I mean, it's just a win all around.
Michael [06:18]
Yeah. Can you talk about that? Because I would imagine that there are plenty of athletes who, when you start working with them, and you sort of present this approach or philosophy, they're skeptical? I mean, can you talk about sort of different types of reactions you get from athletes when you first start working them about treating injury, like a opportunity for growth versus just being really threat? Really being a threat?
Carrie Jackson [06:39]
Yeah, absolutely. Because you're right, like there, there are a lot of different reactions. And in a lot of it has to do with timing, right. So if I come at a you know, if I'm approaching an athlete who's just been injured and is devastated and trying to figure out what does this mean, for being what does this mean for my career? What does this mean for my season? And I'm like, hey, don't worry, dude, it's an opportunity. Oh, really? Is it because it doesn't feel like it carry like, does not feel like it at all? Right? So, so timing is a big factor. So, you know, in within this idea of working with athletes through their injury process, you really have to honor what they're going through. And it is devastating. And it's a huge blow to what you thought your season was going to look like, right? And, and a huge blow to your athletic identity. So you that part, you kind of have to honor that first. And then as you start opening up, you're sort of opening up yourself to the experience and working through it. And in doing the mindset training and the mental training. And then that's when they're ready to start to look at the possibility that maybe I can come back from this even stronger. And maybe, maybe this could be something that actually is really good. Like I like the idea of, if you step back and look at the bigger picture and look at its like taking Joseph Campbell's mythology idea of the hero's journey. And if you step back and look at your journey as an athlete, you, you're still on this big journey. And right now you just happen to be injured. And that's part of your journey. And if you're lucky enough to be an athlete for long enough, there's a good chance it'll be part of your journey, maybe not, but for a lot of us, it is at some point. And so how do we start to wrap our heads around, seeing how we can get through that part of your hero's journey of your injury, or of your athletic journey? With resilience and, and with a growth mindset, instead of feeling like this is the worst thing that could have ever happened to me. It's not you know, it sucks, injuries suck. There's no getting around that, but it's not the worst thing that's ever happened, you might actually come out the other side feeling grateful for it.
Michael [08:50]
Right. You know, so in my work, you know, because my, so much of my focus is with, you know, adolescent high school to college population. You know, what I see in my limited experience with injured athletes is it's much harder to get them to see the big picture, particularly when you've got the target being, oh, I want to get a college scholarship.
Carrie Jackson [09:15]
Yeah.
Michael [09:16]
And you're such a limited amount of time that they have, to your point time, and it's a little limited amount of time that they have to prove their worth, especially if they don't have a commitment or, you know, to have a scholarship offer. I find it's really hard to sort of console them. And but how helped them see the bigger picture? I mean, have you had those types of experiences in that age group?
Carrie Jackson [09:36]
Yeah, yeah. And there's a few different things I see in particular that are unique to the high school athlete going through and especially in that transition to college and thinking about being a collegiate athlete, and it does feel like those years in particular when you feel like you're, you know, when you're starting to get recruited and thinking about where am I going to be going, it can feel like a huge blow to be injured during that time. And so and then Also, just that it feels like a lot of pressure. So a lot of those athletes that I've worked with in that, like high school to college transition, when they're injured during that time is just feeling like, I've lost my opportunity. And I'm, and nobody's gonna want me now and what does this mean for me, and, and just putting so much pressure on themselves. And the sort of the dangerous thing with that is the possibility of coming of pushing too hard too soon, and not allowing your body to recover, so that you do come back 100%. Because let me tell you, those college coaches don't want you at 80%, they want you at 100%. So it's worth, they want you to take the time to recover as much as you'd like, you know, as much as I do, as much as you do, Michael feel like, you know, it just, but it's hard when you are feeling that pressure, the other pressure, I think that they feel too, sometimes is just feeling like they need to be there for their team. And feeling guilty for being injured and not being able to contribute. And so to let that go to, that's a big thing that that people go through. But really, you know, when I talk, you know, kind of coach people through that process of if they're injured, and they were in the middle of get out of that recruitment process, like you're those coaches. Like, I'll encourage the athletes to connect with them and let them know how their recovery is going. Because they want to see, like you're taking that you're taking a recovery seriously. And that you're embracing that mindset of like, Okay, my recovery is now my sport, and every all of the energy I was putting into my sport and putting it on my recovery. And so the coach feels confident that I'm coming back 100% and so it's okay, if you're not on the field, that's okay, if you're not on the court, they want to see that you're working and not and not working, not overdoing it. Because that's going to be a red flag for them to like, is this person going to be healthy throughout their college career? They want to know that that you can you know that you're able to do that. So there's a few kind of unique things that are always on my mind if I'm working with a high school injured athlete.
Michael [12:03]
Yeah. Because I've worked with a few who've actually had some fairly significant injuries. And the issue I've seen with them is they're playing through the injury, and delaying some sort of treatment. Because if they don't have, if they were committed, it'd be different, right? I have a commitment, I have a scholarship offer, like it's not going away, I'm going to just you know, I'm going to get fixed, and that's going to be it. But if I don't have a commitment, they'll say like, I'll just play through pain, and they're like, torturing themselves to play through these injuries with a massive amount of pain, because they feel like, if I get the surgery, that's gonna be the end of my recruitment process. Have you seen that as well?
Carrie Jackson [12:41]
Yeah, yeah. And it really, I mean, that's where we're also looking at a bigger sort of cultural shift in terms of this idea that has been romanticized of playing through the pain. Like if you, you know, if your real team player and if it meant enough to you, you know, and if you're, you know, passionate enough about your sport, and you want it bad enough, you're gonna pay to play through the pain, which is such a dangerous and horrific precedent to set. And, and that's a big sort of, part of our goal is to flip the script on that because it's not, you know, then you get athletes that end up, not being able to play at all, because they've pushed their body too hard too soon, are they you know, they haven't allowed themselves to, to heal and are now dealing with a chronic injury instead of an injury that you could have healed from so. But it's tough. When you want something so badly and don't maybe aren't able to see that bigger picture. And trust that you are going to come back? It just, you know, you got to you got to give yourself time to do it.
Michael [13:49]
Yeah, I think that's an important word, right? Trust and trust in the process. And knowing that if you do put in the work, and you put yourself in the right position, from a recovery perspective, you're going to get back to where you want to be. But there's just so much fear about the unknown. A lot of times that it's, you know, they just, you know, a lot of athletes just don't want to look at it in the face, or they are in denial about what they have to do or want to do or need to do to get back to where they were. Yeah. You did mention some of the types of things like in passing, like the types of techniques and skills that you would work with an injured athlete on. Could you can you talk about that a little bit more? And how do you go about developing programs for individual athletes based upon what you're seeing? Assessing?
Carrie Jackson [14:29]
Yeah, so you know, I wrote a whole book on it. Right, so I mean, I mean, I like I mean, I still have other tools that I didn't even it didn't get to make it into the book. But like, that book is so full of mental training tools that you can do that to impact yourself and help yourself through this recovery process. So man, there's just so many different there's so many different ways that you can help yourself through the process and so much research that shows that the, you know, athletes that do the mental training during their injury recovery have helps with outcome with having positive outcomes. But just for so long, we've only thought about injury as a physical process and a physical rehabilitation and just haven't even though you ask any injured athlete, if part of their recoveries mental, and they'll tell you 100%, we just have not given people the tools to be able to know what how to work, how to have a mental recovery and mental rehabilitation. So in the, in the book, there's all different kinds of ways to, you know, all different types of mental training tools to help you through that process. So part of it kind of depends on where you're at in your recovery, right, like where you're at in the injury process, and, but I have a couple of favorites, I have so many favorites. But um, you know, one, one, actually fun one that I love to do is it's sort of a long, positive affirmations. But the way you do it is we call them random reminders. And so in your phone, you grab your phone, and you go to your reminders, and you write down some, like a positive affirmation. And then you just like, spin the day like, like, you would spend the prices right wheel, which I totally can, if your audience is not gonna know what I'm talking about, like you spin the wheel, right on the date, and it just lands on a random day. So you don't know when it is. And I'll put usually I'll put in like five to 10 at a time in my phone, and then just spin the wheel. And they all have different dates. And then you'll be amazed at like, how the timing of some of these things when this message pops up. And you're like, oh, my gosh, that's exactly what I needed to hear. And so that's a really fun one to like, make sure you're getting those positive messages of encouragement. So that I yeah, I really liked that one. And then another one I really like I was just working on this with another with one of my clients is it's sort of a framework for if you're feeling hooked by, like you're feeling overwhelmed, or you're feeling stressed. And you're and you're sort of feeling hooked a way to hit the pause button. So that you can regroup. It's so it's a it gives you a framework to do it. So it's the template like the it's like a fill in the blank. And so the template is I am feeling blank, because I'm focused on blank, right? So you fill in the blanks, you're like, Okay, well, I'm feeling overwhelmed, because I'm focused on how far I have to go in my recovery. And then you the next one is I want to feel blank. So I'm going to focus on blank, it's so it's a, you know, I want to feel confident. So I'm going to focus on, you know, contacting my PT and ask him what the next step is, you know, whatever it is like you fit, it helps you to make that shift into something that's in your control, but it gives you a template for it where it's like, because your brain is on in overdrive trying to in those moments. So tip, first hit the pause button, and then give yourself a template for the mindset shift is a nice tool that I really like using too.
Michael [18:12]
Right? It's almost like an exercise to shift from emotion focus coping to problem focus coping
Carrie Jackson [18:16]
Exactly, yep. Exactly.
Michael [18:18]
Very cool. I love the rollout one that's it always amazes me of what you know, what people in our field are able to come up with in terms of developing creative interventions that are fun. And that will have a much higher probability of sticking.
Carrie Jackson [18:36]
Yes.
Michael [18:38]
And it's something that I'm constantly working on because it's it doesn't necessarily come natural to me. So I love to hear that, that sounds, that sounds really, really cool.
Carrie Jackson [18:46]
It's great. It's such a big part of our job to translate it into something that's sticky and like fun and something that you'll actually do.
Michael [18:53]
Yeah. Now, I know from some of my work, you know, the research out there about, you know, how the psychology of the athlete impacts the probability of re injury, right. So obviously, there's a recovery phase of this. But ultimately, the athlete will recover, right, the body will recover in almost all instances, and they'll go back onto the field. So once they've recovered, like, what does that look like in terms of like, okay, now they're back on the field, and they may be having some doubt, even though they're 100%. Physically able, yeah. So like, what does that look like for you when you're working with an athlete?
Carrie Jackson [19:30]
Yeah, that so that's where during that particular phase, sometimes what I'll see is there's still some, there might be some hesitation or self-selection out of certain things because you're still you're, it's like your confidence or your mental training needs time to catch up to the physical recovery. Right? So there's still some mental recovery and you're and you know, you're physically there but your, your confidence isn't there yet and needs to kind of catch up And so when that happens, then there might be other tools that I'm working on with an athlete to help with that catch up. And part of it depends on what's happening. So part of it might be, you know, if, if it's fear of re injury, and not trust, you know, then there's specific tools we might be working on, if it's not trusting your body, which is similar, but a little bit different than fear of injury, like there might be certain tools we're focusing on, if it's fear that you're not going, you know, that you're, you've lost fitness and you're not in the same place as your teammates, then there's other tools that we might be working on. First, it's kind of assessing like, well, what's, what is the hesitation? Like, where's the gap? And what's causing the gap? And then that helps us figure out okay, now what do you know, do we need to address the, you know, how we're defining success? Or do we need to address some tools for managing anxiety to kind of quiet the protective mechanism of that fear of re injury? So it's, yeah, so it can, you know, kind of depends on what's happening for the athlete in that moment.
Michael [21:03]
Right. So, you know, basically, like any other athlete, you're developing a custom intervention based upon what you're identifying as being the issues based upon the personality of the athlete, that way they learn all those things, right. So it's not like a one size fits all like, Hey, here's a program for, you know, mental skills training through injury, it's not necessarily how it's gonna work.
Carrie Jackson [21:25]
No, yeah, there's I mean, there's, there's definitely a lot of things that you'll see that I see athletes struggle with across the board. And I even have like a, like a, sort of a, an online coaching program, like a support group. Because one of the things that's really helpful too, is support and getting support through the process. And that's something that we see as a buffer against stress. So it's a significant part of what I encourage people to do, too. So there, so there are things that, you know, most athletes will. But that being said, we everybody's still unique in both in their injury and our experience with injury and what, what it is that sticking with them this time, because sometimes it's really interesting, you'll have work with athletes that they're like, I don't understand what's happening. The first time I had an injury, I was fine, I came back, it was incredible. I didn't, I wasn't afraid of getting injured at all, I don't understand what's happening. It's, it's really confusing to them. So it's, you know, even within athletes, it might be unique to themselves in one injury to the next. And so it's, there definitely isn't, although, I'll see things across the board that many athletes will struggle with, the way that I work with that person, and what's going to click with them might be different. And so it's you, you kind of can't do a cookie cutter program because of that.
Michael [22:46]
Absolutely. And, and what that makes me think of is sort of in a context of, you know, this podcasts, you know, purpose and theme is, you know, you might get an athlete might get injured in high school, and not think twice about it, right. But then I go to college, and the circumstances are different, or the pressure is higher, or whatever, like, there's more, there's greater stakes, and all of a sudden, what was something that they dealt with routinely, the first time, the second time, it's completely different, even though it may be a similar injury of similar scope and severity, but they're now they're in this, you know, much more competitive environment where the psychological and physical demands are much greater. I mean, is that kind of an example of something that you might say?
Carrie Jackson [23:29]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'll say the other thing I'll see too, is just, um, with some athletes, the, it might depend on the type of injury it is to and whether or not it increases their feeling of vulnerability. And so that's a, you know, that's a piece, we're just your brain is wired to protect your body. And so it kind of goes into overdrive in that protective mode, it can be hard to come back out of that. And you so you kind of you need some mental training tools to throw a wrench in that feedback loop to get yourself out of that protective sort of mode. But, um, but yeah, that's definitely something that I'll see.
Michael [24:07]
And I don't think I was thinking about this when I was preparing or planning to ask you, but I am curious, like, Can you talk about, like, how you help, say, parents of athletes, or the dynamic within a family, when it comes to major injuries, because obviously, like, it's not just the person who's injured, it affects the people around them, especially when there's a significant consequence, like a potential financial consequence, right? If it's comes, you know, comes to being a professional athlete or going to college and having a scholarship and all those things. Like, what are your experiences like that, in that space?
Carrie Jackson [24:43]
Yeah, with parents, um, you know, part of it again, it's sort of it's so unique to with parents and sort of what the injury is in, in the family dynamics and, and there's a lot of different things that can happen there. But you know, one thing that parents are concerned with is like, um, you know, sometimes they'll still see that their child is, is cleared to play, but still holding back. And so they know that it's meant the mental piece that's holding them back, and they don't know how to help. And so that, you know, oftentimes, that's what I'm getting contacted by parents is, is during that piece, and they just, they feel a little helpless about what to do. So, you know, sometimes I'll get on, you know, one of my sessions might be meeting with the parents or it might be meeting with the parents and the physical therapist, you know, to, to help provide similar language to everybody and, and kind of give a context of what's happening with that sort of the mental piece and how they can reinforce some of that, but yeah, just as much as athletes need to kind of pull back and not put pressure on themselves, parents need to do the same thing. Because it's only going to get in the way of the athlete being able to get back as healthy as possible as soon as possible. So really, sort of just honoring that. Honoring the body and honoring the time it takes in order to make that happen, and you can't rush it. And if you do, it does not always work out in your favor, and it's not worth it. So it just yeah, so kind of the parents trusting that process to interesting, the health care providers that are there working with your kids.
Michael [26:19]
Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I don't do a lot of work in injury space. But that's my experience just in terms of performance, you know, and in terms of parents who come to me and say, like, I'm sort of at my wit's end, I don't know how to help my child like, can you help them? Yeah. And I would imagine that in that right, when you're feeling helpless, about what your child can do, and what I find, and I'm curious as to whether you see this, what I'm finding in my work, just on the performance side is the parents sometimes are at, they're, they're under more duress than the athlete. And then when the athlete and I talk to them, because they have more, they have more control over the situation, right? Like, either they're not viewing it as such a big deal. Or maybe they're on the same page, but the athlete has control because now we're dealing one on one and parents are outside the circle. So like I could I my experiences is that sometimes parents can actually, you know, for lack of a better way to put it make things worse.
Carrie Jackson [27:17]
Yes, yes. And not [Inaudible 27:18]. Right. Like…
Michael [27:19]
No, no, of course not.
Carrie Jackson [27:20]
We are absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But like, it is interesting that in some ways, like, you know, I might be encouraging the parents to work on their own sort of anxiety management. Yeah. Because the pit you're so right, like the parents are going through their own experience. And then athletes also going through an experience, and then they're going through a combined experience. So it's, and we forget that sometimes that like each person in that is going through their own personal thing that's going on, and then how do you help each other in that space when you're triggered? And not in don't know what to do? And or, you know, I think, you know, any parent of any teenager out there is going to recognize, like, it's also just a challenge to be the parent of a teenager, let alone an athlete, let alone an injured athlete. So, you know, one of the things you've probably heard this too, Michael, like, one of the things I'll hear sometimes, like, from parents is like, Carrie, I told them the exact thing that you did, like, but they did it. I told them all of these that, you know, and I was like, I know, but it's different, because they're not gonna hear it when it's coming from you. But they'll hear it coming from me. They're like, okay.
Michael [28:18]
We talk, we talk about I talk about I talk about that all the time with parents. Yeah. And what I will, what I'm finding is that, at least, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but what I find is, I'm coming across many more parents now that I feel like understand that dynamic, like to the point where they're like, they're like, you know, what, I know, my child is not going to listen to me, as much as I try. And I know that somebody on the outside who's has a, you know, a moat has not invested emotionally, is going to be able to help. And so I'm willing to step aside and have someone else help them, which I think is great, you know, because I think in the past, and maybe it's just a function of the times in terms of our understanding of mental health, maybe it's just financial means to write like, if you have the financial means it's a lot easier to say, Hey, I'm going to invest in, you know, mental skills coaching for my athletes, because I can part with the disposable income versus like, you know, if you don't have that, it's, it's much harder and more stressful. And so, but I think it is great that parents are stepping forward and saying, like, Hey, I don't, I don't know if I could do this. But being a parent of a teenager is hard, because. But I did want to spend a little time as we sort of move towards wrapping up on identity, right? You mentioned identity is such a big part of it, right? And the way athletes look at themselves and they put so much of their identity, so much of their identity is formed in being an athlete and then when we get injured and we're not able to do the thing that we're most identifying ourselves with or what we think other people see us as there can be obviously a negative mental health consequences. If we talk about, like what you see there in terms of really helping athletes to sort of see the bigger picture in terms of like, who they are as people and their identity.
Carrie Jackson [30:09]
yeah, it's a, it's a really significant one for actually for all ages, which is interesting, but like, one of the things to recognize with your high school athletes is it, you know, that I, where I see the biggest impact and why this is really important for sort of parents and coaches to tune into also is that if you are the coach or parent of an athlete, that has a high athletic identity, and a lot, a significant amount of their self-worth comes from their athletic identity, and then they get injured, that's where you have real potential for mental health issues, and, you know, increased risk of anxiety and depression and, and consequences from the emotional impact of not being able to participate in your sport, when you have high athletic identity and high self-worth wrapped up in that. So, so, so there's a couple things that you're doing, you know, one is to really outside of being injured, you know, or just in general to be talking to your, you know, to your kids and the athletes that you're coaching about different aspects of their identity. And that this is, you had an athlete that I was working with, he puts so eloquently said, I, you know, his sport is triathlon, and he's like, triathlon isn't who I am, it's what I do. So, you know, he has a very good grasp on what it means in his life. And it's important to him and his professional triathlete, but it's, it's not his end all be all, he's other things as well, and sort of recognizing that. And so being able to help your kids recognize that to that you're more than just an athlete, that's part that's what you do. And it's part of who you are. It's not all of who you are. And you're still, you know, an incredible, worthy person outside of that. And so that's really important. And then the other piece is to help them recognize to, you're still an athlete. And so that's why that concept is really sticky with my athletes that like, you know, when I'll say those words, I'll say that you're still an athlete. And now your recovery is your sport, and everything you were doing in order to perform to your potential, you know, on the field or on the court, you now need to do for your recovery. So you're, you know, because the thought process is that, like, if I can't do the thing, I'm not the thing, right? If I can't do my sport, I'm not an athlete. That's not true. You're still an athlete, and you need to take that athlete mindset and apply it to your recovery.
Michael [32:32]
Yeah, it's interesting. One of my, one of my former guests, or prior guests, was a college football player, a very high level division one, he, he injured his back very severely, he was forced to retire before he finished his college career, his goal, his dream was to play professional football. And ultimately, that led to him becoming depressed, addicted. And ultimately, he tried to commit suicide. And in the podcast, he talks about how when he found another purpose, right, when he found something bigger than sport, that's when he started to make an emotional recovery and started to be able to shift his thinking. And I think what you just said is so important, right? Like, there's so many elements of a person, and there's so much in our society tied up in, I'm going to be an athlete, I'm an athlete, I'm going to go to college, I'm going to be a pro, I'm going to do this and when it doesn't happen for so results, assaults, results oriented, you can't, we can't get off the fact that we didn't achieve what we said or thought we were going to achieve. Right? So it's such a, it's, it's, it's so important to be talking to them about, hey, do you have other things that you like to do? Do you have friends like this? I mean, there's a very few athletes in the world who could put all the eggs in one basket and be able to cope with the pressure that comes?
Carrie Jackson [33:58]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And as parents, you can think about too, am I modelling that, right? Because we can get wrapped up in that too of like, over identifying as a parent, in your career, you know, whatever it is, like if you're, if most of your self-worth is wrapped up in, you know, significantly more than one area of your life to kind of think about, well, how, you know, how can I also be a role model for this and be able to broaden my own idea of that I'm worthy outside of any one aspect of myself.
Michael [34:30]
Yeah. So I guess the last phase in the progression is we get athletes who ultimately are forced to transition out of sport because of injury. So can you talk about what that's like when you come across those types of athletes? Because obviously, that can be really traumatic?
Carrie Jackson [34:47]
Yeah. Yeah. There's two different ways I see that present itself and one is it's actually not because of the physical injury but because they can't get a handle on their nerves and so they feel forced out because of that. So, so there's so there's two things that I'll see. So that's one. And one thing we'll talk about is like, you know, sometimes that will happen is it's a natural thing to happen. For some athletes when you're injured to question whether or not you want to come back. And so there's but sort of, so one of the things we'll do is we'll still do the mental training and get you mentally and physically ready to come back. So that then you get to decide and feel like you made the decision instead of the decision being made for you. So it's a nice way to kind of shift the perception of control, and some pain and some athletes will be like, I just needed to get a handle on my nerves, and I don't want to quit, and then others get a handle on they're like, you know what, I think it's just, I'm ready. And I feel good about this. So if you without the process, you might feel like you're being forced out because you just can't get a handle on your, on your nerves and on the mental piece. So then there's also people that are feel forced out because they the, the physical injury is one that won't allow you to go back to that particular sport or to any sport, it might be catastrophic injury that affects not just your sport, but your life. And so in, and that's a whole kind of transitional process, in and of itself, of what does this mean, now, not only for who I am, as an you know, in my athletic world, but who I am in my life. And so just you know, what's interesting is in on the injured athletes club podcast, I've had the opportunity to, you know, interview so many amazing athletes and talk about their stories and, and time, and again, you know, whether it's a, you know, an injury that was a catastrophic injury that changed their entire life or, or an injury that was a, you know, a really significant injury, but they were able to go back to their sport in the way that they did. It's so amazing time and again, athletes independent of each other will say, you know, I never would wish this on anybody. And I wouldn't necessarily want to go through it again. But I'm so grateful I went through it, because I'm, it opened doors and opportunities to me, and I learned things that I never would have been able to had I not gone through that experience. You know, so again, that's something that they weren't able to see until the other side, but I feel like if we share enough of those stories, then people who are in that position might start to have some hope that maybe that means that I can do that, too.
Michael [37:22]
Yeah, it's so it's so important. So as we finish up, if you had to give one piece of advice to an athlete who was injured, what would it be?
Carrie Jackson [37:38]
I think part of it is to reach out for support and find your support system. So that you know, you're not alone, it can feel very isolating. When you're injured, it can be really painful to feel like everyone else is out there, you know, doing the sport that I love, and I'm not able to be there. So to really think about, well, what can I do to help provide support for myself, if you're, you know, if you're on Facebook, we have aged athletes club support group, or even just listening to other stories, you know, through the injured athletes club podcast, so that you can feel like you're connecting with other people, and know that you're 100% not alone. And there's other people out there that get it and get what you're going through and get how important this is to you. And just, you know, I think that's probably the biggest thing is reaching out for support.
Michael [38:27]
And for and for parents, what's the one piece of advice you might give to a parent or an injured athlete?
Carrie Jackson [38:31]
Yeah, I think, um, you know, providing the space to, to allow them to talk about how they're feeling, right. And just like, without judgement, without responding, just sort of holding the space which is can be challenging to do sometimes, but just like, you know, and sometimes they might not be ready or willing to share with you, but as much as you can, like, you know, letting them talk about their recovery and in letting it come from them. You know, just like so, you know, how did it feel in physical therapy today, like, what do you guys work on and how are you feeling about your injury?