How does Josie Nicholson help Ole Miss student-athletes be better than just okay?
Athletes who engage sport psychologists do so for many reasons. Sometimes they are seeking to improve their performance. Sometimes they are just looking to talk about everything but their sport. Regardless, the biggest misconception is that athletes that seek help from a sport psychologist need to fix something.
My guest on this episode, Josie Nicholson, is a former collegiate soccer player, host of the UNIT3D Podcast, and Assistant Athletic Director for Sport Psychology at the University of Mississippi.
In Episode 30, Josie discusses how her own athletic experiences led her into this unique and rewarding field. She debunks the myth that working with a sport psychology professional is only for those who are struggling and that it’s important for athletes to get help to be better than just okay.
My suggestion to young athletes is to be open-minded and leverage the resources available. It’s okay to be okay, but being just okay isn’t as good as being great.
I want to thank Josie for her kind generosity and the wisdom she shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can follow Josie on Twitter @RebelSportPsych.
Visit https://michaelvhuber.com to subscribe to the podcast, download my free Mental Performance Coaching Primer, or register for my free "5 Mental Performance Building Blocks" video course, which is scheduled to drop on 2/15.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back for Episode 31!
[00:00:00] Mike: Hey Josie, how are you?
[00:00:02] Josie Nicholson: Hey Mike, what's going on? It's good to see you.
[00:00:05] Mike: It's good to see you again too. It hasn't been that long. It’s about a month and a half or so.
[00:00:10] Josie Nicholson: I know but it feels yet, Hi means nothing now. We have no idea. Well, passage of time and perception, it’s all out of window.
[00:00:17] Mike: Absolutely. Well, thank you for coming on. And I'm really glad to have you on the show. So I guess first and foremost, can you tell everybody what it's like, what a day in the life of someone who works in Ole Miss Athletics is like?
[00:00:29] Josie Nicholson: I don't know that I can, as there's no typical day. But I will tell you what my days are made up of, I do a lot of individual meetings, whether it's therapy or meetings for performance enhancement, with different athletes from all different sports and all different stages of the game in terms of where they are academically. And for some, they want to come in and just talk about whatever comes up, for others, they want to talk about anything about their sport, like give me 40 minutes where I don't talk about my sport at all. And I'm not that person that plays that game. And then others don't want to talk about anything personal, just because not much is going on, but they just want to talk about how to improve their performance. So that's where we go and then other times, I am meeting with teams, or, you know, helping them whether it's conflict resolution, like how to communicate better, or have more confidence, different strategies from the mental side of the game. I'll obviously do any of the X's and O's, but then also, I'll consult a good bit with coaches just on Yeah, different ways to weather motivate, or what do you think is going on with this player or, you know, that sort of thing. And injury consultation is another big part of it. So I spend a lot of time like, bounce around the training room and getting to know some players and seeing how everybody's doing from an injury recovery standpoint. Yeah, so that's pretty much my main gig.
[00:02:17] Mike: There's a lot, there's a lot in there.
[00:02:19] Josie Nicholson: It is a lot of that I have, you know, other things where I kind of run the sports psych department. So we have two other clinicians and just kind of making sure everybody's doing well and getting their needs met.
[00:02:34] Mike: Awesome. So I'm curious for the student athletes that you see individually. Is that something that's completely up to them to choose or is it something that's suggested strongly mandated? Like what's that look like? How do you, who chooses and how do they choose whether or not they come to see you?
[00:02:54] Josie Nicholson: Yes, it's super interesting, I would say most of my people are chose to come. We have an alcohol and drug program, and that is not always the choice of the athlete. There are people that have been strongly encouraged by their coach to come for whatever reason. And a lot of times, it's just that the coaches really know how it's going to benefit their athletes, because I've seen it and others and the athlete may not have ever had that experience. So, you know, kind of encouraging them to come, I'd say, most of the time, the athletic trainers are the ones that are kind of like, have you thought about going into sports Psych and talking to one of them? It can be really helpful. And so, you know, I'd say most of the time that athletes are choosing to come in, you know, because their athletic trainer, or their coaches said it would be good idea, or they've, they have a friend or roommate teammate that says it was really helpful to them.
[00:03:57] Mike: Yeah, so you're getting referrals from different people within the organization, the athletic department, whether it's other student athletes, whether it's trainers, coaches, etc, right, they're sending them your way?
[00:04:09] Josie Nicholson: Yeah. And a lot of times too will go, I tried to make a point of making sure that at the beginning of the year, we have a little bit as an office, a little bit of FaceTime with all the different teams, all the different athletes, just to remind them or introduce ourselves. If somebody is doing campus like, here we are, here's the resource, you know, we're here for you.
[00:04:33] Mike: Absolutely. And it's interesting because I go through that in my own practice of some people, you see them for a bit and then you don't hear from them and you have to kind of reach out to like, reintroduce yourself almost to say, Hey, how's everything going? Do you need some help? No, because you're out of sight, out of mind sometimes.
[00:04:48] Josie Nicholson: Well, and the thing that like, Okay, so freshmen or transfer student comes on campus, and they are just bombarded with, here's where this was? Here's where this person is, here's who this person is, and, you know, 150 names at least in a day. And they do that for three straight days just trying to get their bearings. How much of that are we expecting them to retain is like, let's go through. You know, it's almost like when you are at a wedding, and there's the reception line, and they just shake hand and congratulations, shake hand and congratulation. And so it's like, that's kind of how it feels sometimes. It's like, you're not gonna remember my name, I wouldn't expect you to, and you don't think ooh, there's a psychologist, I'm going to tuck that back in my brain in case I ever, you know, struggle. But then in the middle of something it could be like, seems like somebody said, there was some mental health support. Can't remember what that is.
[00:05:54] Mike: Yeah. So, how many like, so incoming, let's say incoming freshmen like, if you had to ballpark it, like, how many of those student athletes who are new to campus, how many do you think have had some exposure to sports psychology or mental performance training before they get to Ole Miss?
[00:06:12] Josie Nicholson: It's definitely on the rise. I mean, for sure. So of our international students that come from abroad, I would probably say at least 50, 60%. Because they have, they're competing at such elite levels. And, you know, a lot of tennis, a lot of golf, and that's just part of the thing overseas, and you want to be the best, you're going to use every resource available to you. So that's a big thing. Here, I don't know, that's tough to say. That's a 20% maybe, it's not a lot.
[00:06:53] Mike: Yeah, that's what I would have. I mean, I would have guessed a much lower number here in the States. But it's interesting that overseas, it's different is that because there's a national academy system, in most countries?
[00:07:05] Josie Nicholson: So, partially, because of that, and partially because to get to America from overseas, you got to be at such an elite level and mainly in those individual sports, right. So it's just kind of more of an accepted thing. I mean, if you look at, if you listen to guys and women on the PGA and LPGA. And you listen to, you know, upper level, tennis players, they're all talking about their performance psychologists. They talk about their mental game a lot. And so I think maybe even in the sports, it's more common.
[00:07:51] Mike: Yeah. So for those more traditional team sports in the US, do you find it's more challenging to get young people on board for mental performance training or clinical services?
[00:08:05] Josie Nicholson: No, I think people are excited. I mean, especially now there's such an acceptance that mental health is, you know, a vital piece to take care of to get the best out of your performance. So I don't think it's really necessarily a sell, one of the things I hear often is, like, I'm not really struggling out, really have our job. I didn't want to take spot for somebody who really needs it. Like, that's not what we're about, that's not what we're doing here. It's all good. And we all like can benefit, you know, need is a strong word and in terms of need. I mean, I'm kind of falling down a rabbit hole here. But when we talk about need, there's not a ton of my students that absolutely need this, like, they're gonna be fine, they'll be okay. They'll have their, you know, collegiate experience, and they'll move on. What I want is better than okay. I think in life, we all work too hard to be good with fine. And so when somebody, you know, passes you and says, how’s it going? And you say, Oh, fine. If you couldn't change that to, I'm doing great, then go do something, get some support, go talk to somebody and load some of that burden. So you can walk just a little bit quicker and, and lighter. And, you know, so that's kind of. It's not really a hard sell. Especially because the performance piece when I'm like, well, neurologist increase your breathe to 100%, let's chat about it, is appealing and not very threatening. When I come in, I'm like, let's talk about your relationship with your mother. Now, I'm not gonna get into bye.
[00:09:48] Mike: That’s funny.
[00:09:49] Josie Nicholson: They often I mean, a lot of people do end up not to blame it on moms, but just, you know, metaphorically speaking.
[00:09:55] Mike: Yeah, and I think that speaks to the motivation of a high level, division one athlete, right? Everybody want, they wouldn't have gotten to where they're at if they weren't completely dedicated to what they're doing. I think for me, like when I work with high school athletes, sometimes you get the lack of motivation, because it's interfering with other priorities, and they think it's sort of an extra thing to do. So it's like, well, I'm not gonna put an extra time here, because what's it going to do, versus like, getting a 21 year old, who wants to get drafted, and he's going, like, I need every little edge I can get. So a lot of it for me is motivation, if I get an athlete that's motivated to work with me, like, that's gold, because then you can get the most out of it, because they're really going to invest in the process versus trying to pull teeth and say, hey, you know, no commend some like, hey, this is gonna work, don't trust me.
[00:10:43] Josie Nicholson: Yeah. And sometimes I wonder, like, it's so complicated and stressful to make assumptions about people, what's going on, on the inside, you know, whether it's motivation, or passion or whatever. And it's so for me, it's easier for me to think about it. As it's not the people are motivated versus not, it's the people who've made the connections or not. The people that have connected that dot between their mental game, and what it takes, and their performance. And I think we just don't grow up with that, as a foundation, we grow up with the, hey, if you work hard, if you're out there, doing extra reps, if you're out there, you know, getting extra coaching and putting your all into practice, you can achieve anything that you want to achieve, which is not true first of all, and they don't say, you know, we pray so much the kids are out there, doing extra reps, they're in the gym, thrown up the shots all the time, but not the ones that are taking care of themselves, or that are, you know, maybe doing some mindfulness training and meditation like, you know, because it could be like, man, I saw you in the gym, throwing up those free throws and way to get the practice. And we don't say like, I saw you meditating in the corner, that was cool way to get the mindfulness and like.
[00:12:14] Mike: No, absolutely not. And when I start working with somebody, I'll say to them like, you know, how much time do you spend in a week, you know, practicing your sport, and there'll be like, 30 hours, and I'm like, how much time you spend working on your mental game? Zero. Don't you think it's a little out of whack? But when you put it into those terms, they start to say, like, hey, if I just spent a couple of hours a week working on basic stuff, there's a big return on investment, because most of the people I'm competing against, are not doing what I'm doing. And so it gives me an edge over competition.
[00:12:46] Josie Nicholson: But you know, we set it up where it's not really conducive for teenagers, right? So teenagers, and we all have that imaginary audience, you know, like the people watching us and for teens that is like, super, super exacerbated. And so teens, it gets better. I promise you, it gets better. I didn't think it was gonna get better. But so it, the focus is on what are the coaches seeing me do? What are my parents seeing me do? What am I being known for, and it's that work ethic? Well, they need to be seeing my work ethic. And so it's hard to dedicate time to something that nobody's gonna see. And that's really difficult because, you know, you want your coach to be so impressed. And in some sports, you need your coach to be impressed, because they're the ones putting your name out there. And coaches want to praise the people that are like, oh, you're out here work and not. You're in there working, and I don't see it.
[00:14:02] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's the right, the tangible sort of, you know, what feedback Am I getting? If I'm not getting the feedback from something that I'm doing, it almost feels like it's a waste of time.
[00:14:13] Josie Nicholson: For sure.
[00:14:14] Mike: Right. So I get that, and I think we all go through that, regardless of whether or not we're an athlete or not. Like it's just anything we do in our lives, you put in a lot of work. And if it's not recognized at some level, it's going to be hard to stay motivated. That kind of begs the question for me, you know, you're kind of talking about parents and coaches and things like so when you see freshmen coming in, who are now on their own for the first time, like, are there common themes or issues that you see from those freshmen athletes that maybe you don't see from someone who's been around for a couple of years?
[00:14:45] Josie Nicholson: Oh my gosh. How much time do we have? I'm [inaudible 14:48].
[00:14:49] Mike: As much as you need.
[00:14:50] Josie Nicholson: Well, I could tell you there that transition is so tough. And so most of the time, there's a pond situation. And what I mean by that is, you know, high school athletes have been swimming around in their pond. And maybe they went to a huge high school, but how many people are in a huge High School? Like, you know, 5000 I don't know, I graduated with 32 people in my senior class. So I've no concept of a big high school. But it ain't like the State of Mississippi or whatever. So they've been swimming around in the small pond and, and they're like, oh, man, I'm one of the 2%, I'm a 2 percenter. I'm gonna go do one, this is awesome. And then they get to this big pond, there used to run in the small pond, there used to be in top of the food chain. Now they have to, and they forgotten also what it was like to be in JVE or middle school, or freshman or whatever, where they were actually working their way up. Because typically, for people that level has been pretty easy unfortunately, and they don't have a ton of experience with failure. So they get in the big pond, and they're like, what the what? I am not top dog. So a couple of things happen. Yes, you have to work your way up. And freshmen come in knowing that but they don't understand, well, that's gonna feel they're used to being acknowledged a lot, not just for how good they are, how talented they are, how hard they work, but for how much better they are the other people. So when they can't look around, and they get used to judging their prowess, their work, their worth their, you know how good they are based on how much better they are, than other people. And you can't do that now. So, you know, it freaks most of them out. Like, I thought it was, and it's hard, because that motivation had shifted from that little boy or girl or other that played the game and love the game to the one that loved the praise, and the accolades and the, you know, all that kind of stuff. And now, they're not getting that. And it's really hard. Because you've switched to external motivators.
[00:17:22] Mike: Absolutely.
[00:17:23] Josie Nicholson: And internal motivation has just atrophied. And you're not getting the reinforcement, you're not getting the reassurance that you are good. So also it's just a lot of hard work. And you know, the reward in high school, you work really hard, but you get rewarded very often by starts by play time, all that kind of stuff. Well, college is twice the work and half the reward for it.
[00:17:54] Mike: If that, if not more.
[00:17:56] Josie Nicholson: Right. If you're really lucky to come in and get that, so that's super, super tough. And I'm just one other one other part of it that I see really commonly that causes a lot of difficulty is that the relationship with the coach in high school tends to be a good bit different. It is rare that a high school coach would have their entire livelihood depended on wins, right? So they tend to pay a lot of attention to the individual. They're very, you know, there's a sense like, oh man, this person really cares about who I am, as a person beyond an athlete and there's a just a different relationship. Well, when you come to college, nobody talks to them about the fact that relationship that you had with your high school coach wasn't a professional one. Not that that's negative. It's just not what it is and in college, because now, it's a job. It's a professional relationship. It is a business.
[00:19:03] Mike: Yup
[00:19:04] Josie Nicholson: And this person may care about you as a person, like my boss cares about me as a person. But at the end of the day, I gotta get my work done. And if I'm not, he's gonna find somebody else and it's nothing personal. I've never been taught to not take things personally. They never been taught what a boundaried business relationship is? And their template is not the same. They have a sense of diminished worth because of that.
[00:19:35] Mike: Yeah, that's I mean, it's something I talked about the athletes I work with a lot. I talked to them about empathy specifically, being able to put themselves in a coach's shoes to say, hey, well, what does a coach get paid to do? Well, they get paid to win games, right? Coach has to make choices. He's got 100 players on the football roster, but he can only play 22 right like coaches have to make hard choices because if they don't do the right thing for the team, they're gonna get fired. And it's not personal because they just have to do what they need to do. And so I start talking to them about that at a much younger age to say like, hey, like, they're not doing it to you, right? But you need to figure out what you can control and start to use the resources at your disposal to get better, and use that cell frame of reference versus comparing myself to others. But it's really hard, because they've been conditioned through high school. They're so important, so special. Now you show up and you're just like everybody else.
[00:20:33] Josie Nicholson: Right. Yeah.
[00:20:34] Mike: So is there anything you do specifically for freshmen in terms of skills training, or anything specific, any sort of curriculum that you give them coming in?
[00:20:43] Josie Nicholson: No, not particularly. I mean, we do a lot of identity exploration, you now, who are you away for your sport? You know, do you have a hobby, have you had a hobby, you know, that sort of thing. And a lot of support, a lot of communications training, and like perspective taking, because even if it's not personal, it still hurts, you know. So, you know, just kind of working through that there's some performance stuff, but a lot of times, it's not a performance thing, it's an experience thing or sometimes too, it's a systems thing. Meaning they just don't fit in the system, you know, and you know, a coach, especially now, because they recruit so young, they didn't know what the system was going to look like, three years from the point that they recruited this kid. And now they're running, you know, a speed offense. And this person is more of a finesse often, you know, like, so that can be, you know, hard and, yeah.
[00:21:52] Mike: It's a lot.
[00:21:55] Josie Nicholson: Yeah
[00:21:57] Mike: Do you like, do you see more, is it more common for one gender over another to come and see you?
[00:22:06] Josie Nicholson: You know, it's not. I always think that that might be at some point, but it just isn't. It's pretty even across the board I think. As long as I'm out there, meeting the different teams, that's the thing that makes a difference. So pub hung around women's soccer a lot more than I have, you know, men's basketball, then I'm going to see more women's soccer players because they know me. So that's been the difference maker over the years.
[00:22:36] Mike: Yeah, is the amount of time you spend with a particular team driven by a coach's philosophy or your relationship with the coach specifically?
[00:22:44] Josie Nicholson: Yeah. So, and it's so funny how it just changes over time. And, you know, sometimes there's a team that wants me to travel with them all the time, and then they get kind of to a different place. And, you know, I still come in and work with them. But, you know, it's just whatever's needed that year, because every single semester, the team is different. You never have the same team semesters semester, which is, because especially now with transfers, you know, attrition of all sorts of reasons, you know.
[00:23:23] Mike: Absolutely. So how did you get into the field of sports psychology originally?
[00:23:31] Josie Nicholson: By having a really crappy college experience.
[00:23:34] Mike: Okay, there you go.
[00:23:35] Josie Nicholson: Well, no, so I did play soccer in college, and just, you know, looking back, so I played after, like, you know, in a variety of places and ways and was playing for one team overseas actually, and a sports psychologist came in and was like, I want to do that. I had worked with athletes from a counseling perspective in my graduate program. And I knew I kind of really liked that population. But when I saw the performance piece at work, I was like, I'm gonna pursue that pretty hardcore and just, it appeals to me. Because I was when I stopped playing college soccer and just started playing soccer, I loved it. And I played so well, like I just got better and better every year. And I was like, if I had had, you know, well, let's be honest. If I had been where I was supposed to be in college, which was in a therapist’s office all the time, then I would have just had so much more fun and, and been happier as a person and, you know, that's kind of the way my journey had to be, but I want to be a resource for anybody who wants a different experience for their college. You know, not saying that everybody needs that to have a great college, I definitely would have benefited. But definitely want to be there for anybody that thinks it would make it a better experience.
[00:25:15] Mike: Yeah, it's interesting. My ex-wife played college soccer as well. And I think the word that she used quite often was traumatized.
[00:25:23] Josie Nicholson: Yeah.
[00:25:24] Mike: So she had a really like, challenging college experience for coaches and things like that. And so it's a shame that it has to be that way, right. But it's just the reality of life. And it's the same thing when you're recruited, like you said, like, it's all sort of such sunshine and rainbows, right? Like, this seems like the best place ever and then you go there, and you show up, and you're practicing, you know, 20 hours a week. And you have to deal with all the nonsense that might go on politics and relationships and personalities. And it's like, it's not fun anymore becomes a job. And oh, by the way, you've got to do another job in the classroom. And oh, by the way, you've got to have a social life. And you've got all these demands on your time. And it's like, well, how do I prioritize it? Especially if you're not getting the return athletically, you're going to be like, well, you know what, I'm not going to put in the extra work, I'm going to go have a good time. And it's just more fun that way. But I'm still not satisfied with my performance. So it's like this, like circle, just running in a circle.
[00:26:18] Josie Nicholson: Well, and I think that there are plenty of people that go in and have a great experience. I think collegiate sports, even soccer and the ones that I noticed have that are the ones that you know, even whether or not they may be riding the bench, they may be on the field, but they're enjoying their time. They're enjoying the process, they're enjoying their role, they're enjoying the experience, rather than looking for stuff that they can't control, like playing time. And so those are the ones too, that are paying attention to what they're doing, rather than constantly chasing somebody approval or somebody's opinion. And when you pay attention to what you are doing, guess what? You do it.
[00:27:09] Mike: You better at it. Exactly. You're doing it. But wouldn't you say like, and this is my experience? Wouldn't you say that it's the vast minority of athletes that are in that bucket of enjoying the process, because that's what I see. I see a lot of perfectionism with my athletes, I see a lot of anxiety, performance anxiety, a lot of comparisons, and not many of them are enjoying the process. And it is a really difficult thing to unwind.
[00:27:39] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, for sure. For sure. There's a quote from Mia Hamm, and it's like, somewhere behind all the hours of training and all the hard work and all the coaches who pushed you is a little girl that fell in love with a game play for her. And, you know, we get into our heads so much about like, what is he seeing or did he see that pass or gosh, there goes by opportunity or, you know, whatever, and the mistakes become debilitating when really that's the only way you get better.
[00:28:16] Mike: Right. Yeah, exactly. And so much of that has to do with the way you're conditioned, you know, growing up when people make you believe it's not okay to make a mistake, or how are you supposed to react? You can't look at the mistake as an opportunity to learn you look at it as there's something wrong with me. You know, it's not healthy, because you know, it's just not sustainable. One of the things I think about, and I think I know the answer the question, but I'm going to curious to explore because you sort of touched on it, which is the idea of programmatic fit, kids coming into a program, that's a fit for them. And what I see and I've heard from other people is, kids are looking for the biggest and best offer the biggest name, the most recognition notoriety, because they want to be able to promote themselves. Sort of that same idea of look at me like as compared to everybody else. And then you get into a program. And it's not what you think you know, what you imagined it to be, even though you get the biggest possible name you could get, because you weren't really looking at all the factors. Do you get involved in recruiting at all or like selection of players? Is there any element like of sort of, you know, like they would do in the NFL, like they sort of do like profiling and things like that you get into I imagine you don't, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
[00:29:41] Josie Nicholson: Now, I will say there are times that scouts come to me and the players have written in a release. I don't really like it because it's still they're not going to get information from me, except what they need, you know, so like, the MLB sends a lot of scouts to do personality measures or you know, things like that. But, and I always, you know, just kind of let them know, like the privacy of my clients, even though they've done this release is still my top priority, but I also want to give the information that's going to be helpful and what the athlete wants, right. So that's kind of dicey. But I do not get involved in recruiting so much as I do meet players coming through. But if they're coming through on official visits, that means that typically the coaches want them, so not much, as I'm going to say is going to change a coach's mind. But, it's so here's the thing from the time, you're a freshman or sophomore in high school, to the time you graduate, you are going through some rapid change in terms of identity formation. And especially for high achievers, a lot of times one of these things that reduces anxiety is having a plan. And knowing what to expect, like a lot of people, a lot of athletes are like that, like that's what they do. They really try to anticipate what's going to happen and prepare for it. So once there's a name in the head, like I'm going to go to Ole Miss, it can be scary to change that, because that is lowered so much anxiety, you know, and it's like, I know where I'm going, I don't have to worry about it. But they're just not asking the right questions. They're asking, you know, what are you ranked? What do you know? What's funny is like, I talked about playing college soccer, you didn't ask me where I played, you know, like, and it doesn't matter, because, at this point in my life, anywhere that I would have played like my dad played football at Maryland, during a time when people were like, oh, that's badass. But when was last time somebody called Maryland badass and football. So no offense to anybody.
[00:32:10] Mike: No, you are on point.
[00:32:11] Josie Nicholson: They will pull your uniforms. But you know what I'm saying is, there was a time when it was like, oh, there could have been. So in 20 years, which seems like a lifetime away. People rarely asked me where I played. You know it because really, it doesn't matter. I don't remember minutes on the field. I don't remember, I remember these really funny stories on the bus. I remember the preseason that our coach, that was a good idea to go alligator hunting in a swamp for a team building. Like, you know, I know that's a whole other podcast. But it's like, people are asking the wrong question. You know, questions like, what is let's say, what's the graduation? Does this University have a variety of majors in the general areas that I'm interested in? So that I thought decided to change my major, that's not going to be a huge deal. What is the team like in terms of, you know, do you have a lot of bonding? Do they have get together’s like spaghetti dinners and stuff like that? Like, these are the important questions. So I just, it's frustrating to see kids make these choices based on things that are going to be so relevant, possibly by the time they come in.
[00:33:43] Mike: Right
[00:33:44] Josie Nicholson: Yeah
[00:33:45] Mike: But I think right, some of that has to do with cognitive development, right?
[00:33:50] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, for sure.
[00:33:51] Mike: Right. Like in terms of, you know, just wanting rewards and not really thinking ahead in terms of what are the long term consequences of this, all those things, but at the same time, I agree. Like, it's something I've seen it actually, I had a client who was in high school, was signed as a sophomore to go play division one baseball, and he got into college. And when he got to college, he found something very different than what he thought he was going to find. And it was a very difficult first year for him because of the culture. And, you know, those are the kinds of questions that can be really hard for someone to ask, like, what's the culture? What's the coaching style? What's the feedback mechanism, right? What are the expectations? Very hard questions for certainly for a high school kid to ask, but even if a family, especially when there's money attached to an offer, and there's prestige and an education, it's almost like you don't want to ask those questions because you're afraid to hear the answer or, you know, you're going to alienate yourself or lose your offer or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, like you have to live there for four years, and now what do we see happening? People are, there are a transfer for them in left and right.
[00:35:02] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, and it's costly.
[00:35:04] Mike: They are leaving their schools left and right. Every week, they see something.
[00:35:09] Josie Nicholson: Yeah. And, you know, I think that most of the time, there's a message being sent to make sure that you would want to go to your school, even if you didn't play. But there are other things too, like do they, if you want to rush? Would they allow for that, or you know, want to, I don't know. There's a lot more to because of being what we talked about before with the dopamine surge is the reward system that gets lit up as a teenager, when somebody gives you an affirmation, right? When somebody when we believe, which is just a perception. We believe that somebody thinks, well, have you that seems so vital? But because of brain formation in 10 to 15 years, it's just not as important. And it's more important that you are happy, you know, and that comes from within rather than from without. And so it's kind of hard, because you're making decisions based on a brain that is going to be different in 10 years.
[00:36:28] Mike: Okay, so the other side of that is, yeah, you're right. But the other side of that too is, you've got parents. Right now, what I've heard in many conversations is, if I'm a coach, I want to deal directly with the athlete.
[00:36:41] Josie Nicholson: Yes
[00:36:42] Mike: Right. 100% right, and I agree with that. The athlete has to take ownership, they need to be motivated. I don't want to hear from mom and dad, but at the same time, like mom and dad need to be a sort of a governor in that process. Because it's like, hold on a second here, like, why are we making this choice? Like, yeah, I want it to be your decision. But how much interaction do you or more generally, the athletic coaches in department have with parents at that level, you know, in the SEC?
[00:37:13] Josie Nicholson: Well, it really depends on the team and the coach. For different coaches, I know that every kid, I mean, I have two boys. And, you know, I already know, one of them is going to the Olympics. Now, it'll be 2034, and I'll be going to Brisbane. But you know, we all think that our kids are so uniquely special. And it is impossible for me to look at something happening with by kids with an objective like I. Like, that just doesn't, I can't. There is no way.
[00:37:47] Mike: Absolutely
[00:37:48] Josie Nicholson: And it's weird. My husband and I were talking about like, yeah, we had ridiculously good looking babies. But there are times when I look back, I'm like, I don't even remember him looking like that. And it's because you're just filled with oxytocin, you can't see straight. So when, so that's an important thing, because the coach has all these different, you know, needs of the team to balance. So I found that there's very, very little. And when there is it's usually, you know, a lot of times it's pretty messy, but it does depend on the team and the coach a lot of times.
[00:38:35] Mike: Yeah, I just I'm always curious about that. Because I'm, you know, I'm a parent too. And I have my own kids, and they play sports, and it is very difficult to be objective. And even when you're objective, they still don't see it that way. So you know, having people in your circle that are not your parents, or our objective, but supportive is critical. But I mean, I didn't play sports in college, but I know how hard that transition was, just in terms of leaving home, and showing up and trying to figure out how to live my life on my own. And so then you add this other responsibility in which, from what I understand, and I've heard is that the structure actually probably benefits the student athlete quite a bit because they're told where to be, when to be, what to do, and it sort of keeps him out of trouble. Whereas I didn't have that response. You know, I didn't have that thing, but I also didn't have the responsibility of performing. For you when you're an athlete, like what was that transition like from high school to college?
[00:39:35] Josie Nicholson: I'm probably not the typical example. So I went, I just had a crazy journey. Like I went to boarding school and then kind of went from like a super religious boarding school to tail where the drinking age was 18. So it was like, pretty rough just to go from super, super structured, for me, it was much less structured, it was a lot more freedom. Whereas, yeah, I think for a lot of athletes, it's kind of the opposite. You know, you go from all this freedom, and all this support to a lot of structure, not a lot of sport.
[00:40:21] Mike: Where was the drinking age 18?
[00:40:23] Josie Nicholson: New Orleans? Yeah, that's how old I am.
[00:40:25] Mike: Where did you go?
[00:40:27] Josie Nicholson: Loyola
[00:40:28] Mike: Did you?
[00:40:29] Josie Nicholson: Yeah
[00:40:30] Mike: That’s so funny. My ex-wife went to Tulane.
[00:40:33] Josie Nicholson: Oh yeah.
[00:40:34] Mike: She played soccer there, and it was a disaster.
[00:40:37] Josie Nicholson: Well, I went there for a week and transferred. So it's not for everybody for sure.
[00:40:46] Mike: For some pretty wild stories.
[00:40:49] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, but that's the thing like for somebody else doing probably the perfect fit.
[00:40:53] Mike: Well, I think school while she loved it soccer wise, I think it was a different story.
[00:40:58] Josie Nicholson: Yeah
[00:40:59] Mike: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't know where to go from there. Oh goodness.
[00:41:09] Josie Nicholson: It's really interesting to look at that though. Because, the more so parents aren't just there doing the laundry, or cooking or whatever, because I mean, you kind of figure that out. But it's more just the, it's kind of like hitting home base, you know, when you're in a game of tag, you're running around, and you hit home base, just every now and then just so you know, it's close. And you can run around, you think you can outrun the person that's cool. But every now and then just gonna touch somebody to make sure. And it's, you don't have that and it could be really scary, you know. In the dorms, I don't understand. You couldn't pay me to have a roommate now. But it blows my mind to look at dorm rooms and think I lived in one of those for two years. Now, I mean, I had come from boarding school where I had a roommate for six years also. But I don't know just to be in college to have somebody that's living in your room, that has because of being in boarding school, like we had the same time we woke up, the same time we got drum school, same time we got back from work, same time we went to their, same time we went to bed. So if you know, there's no like, man, I need to go to bed at 9 and my roommate like, stay up till 11 and make out with her boyfriend on the top bunk right above me. Like, you know what I mean?
[00:42:47] Mike: Right
[00:42:48] Josie Nicholson: There's none of that. So it is, you have a lot of conversations that freshmen don't have. I think that's a really difficult thing is freshmen don't know how to be assertive. They're either doormat or aggressive. And it's like, okay, how do we talk through what I need? And you go in, like, Oh my God, my roommates so nice that we listen the same kind of music. And I can't believe that, you know, I lucked out so much. And that's like, Hey, I hate her. I'm gonna cut off her hair and her sleeve like that's, it goes there pretty quickly. Because of those conversations that they've never been taught to have.
[00:43:26] Mike: Right. Well, it kind of goes back to what you were saying before about boundaries, not only business boundaries, but just in life, right? Like, you're used to living with a family where those boundaries get blurred all the time. And you're not used to living with strangers where, you know, there's a way to have a conversation so that it's not personal. It's just, hey, let's figure out how to make this work. And I think that that's just part of the maturation process. I'm curious, so like, on the back end of it, right, when you're starting to get seniors are going out into the world. How much, are you talking to the student athletes about retirement? And this could be the end and my identity and what that means for me in the future? Like, how much is that comes up in your practice?
[00:44:10] Josie Nicholson: A lot
[00:44:12] Mike: Yeah
[00:44:13] Josie Nicholson: A lot. Because it's, I mean, if they're transitioning to the next level of their sport, whatever it is, that they, you know, those are different conversations. And I have already been working with those athletes for a while on this idea of it could end tomorrow. Whether you're drafted or not, you're a sophomore, you could be done tomorrow anyway, so what are you going to do with today? And what's your plan ‘B’? I always believe this whole like, there's no plan ‘B’. There's, you got to have a plan ‘B’, if you want like, I love my job. I'm passionate about my job. I am not gonna like I don't see myself voluntarily leaving my job. And yet I have a play a beat like if some of that happens because it's athletics. You know, the world was crazy, and I couldn't work here, I would be devastated, oh my gosh, I would be so it would take me a bit. And then I get out of my bed after a week and I go execute my plan ‘B’. I know exactly what it is and how to do it. And I think that keeps me honest in my game, like I'm able to go play my own game, rather than trying to please everybody else. And, you know, make decisions based on what's right, rather than what's gonna piss somebody off. So we have already been talking about that and so, you know, it's not as scary to put yourself out there. I mean, that's all sports is putting yourself out there and being vulnerable. And so with the other, it is such a, for some of them that are just ready, they're ready to be done, you know, and some that are do really, really well. I've done my time or they're excited about their career, and they're ready to get going in that and explore other parts of their identity that they haven't had time to do. And so, but other times, it's a real grief process and scary, like, what am I gonna do?
[00:46:20] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had somebody on the podcast not too long ago, who went through that. He went through depression and attempted suicide, because everything was tied up in his performance as an athlete, I thought it was felt it was gonna go professional. And then he was injured, and it ended. And he just could not make peace with that for a number of years until he found something else that he was like, immersed in and was passionate about, and he had a purpose every day. But until that point, it was like, why me? You know, and I could see that.
[00:46:55] Josie Nicholson: Yeah
[00:46:56] Mike: So it's definitely see that a lot with athletes, and the ones who even you know, the ones who they get hurt temporarily, you know, you have an injury, and you're out for a month.
[00:47:10] Josie Nicholson: It’s an existential crisis.
[00:47:11] Mike: It's an existential crisis. So what am I going to do? I can't contribute, like, this is who I am. And now, like, they're going on without me. It's just really, really challenging. And so there's just so much that goes with the process of being an athlete. And I think, you know, one of the things that I'm sure you subscribe to this on a level, we all have our own philosophy of practice, but like, you know, the person's got to come first for me, you know, it's like, they're way more than just an athlete. And I think sometimes I would imagine, especially in a place like Ole Miss, sometimes you might feel like a commodity. You just feel like a cog in the wheel, because it is a business. And that's just the reality of it. That's why it takes in the internal work to like, insulate yourself, because all this other stuffs happening around you no matter what.
[00:47:57] Josie Nicholson: Right
[00:47:58] Mike: You have to take control of the process, and you can't let it control you.
[00:48:01] Josie Nicholson: Exactly. You know, it's so funny. There's a song that I really, really love called superstar by Cypress Hill. It's so good. And, you know, it has this message of like, there's always somebody that coming along, that's going to be better is so just, you know, and one of the things he says is, you know, it's a fun job, but it's still a job you know. And I think about that, so much like, this is a fun job, but it's still a job. And that means that we have to take care of ourselves, we have to make sure even though I'm having a blast, for example, traveling on a trip with football. I have to make sure that I am doing the things like going to bed and doing the mindfulness stuff that I do, and all those kinds of things because I can get caught up in the fun. And it doesn't feel like a drain like someone else that I'm not enjoying what. And so I think that piece of it is important to look at whether you're transitioning into college or transitioning out that you can forget about your needs with all the novel, and all the news, you know.
[00:49:20] Mike: Huh, I love that.
[00:49:22] Josie Nicholson: And you get a when you're taking care of your whole person, then you have your whole person to play with. And when you put your whole person on the field just performed better.
[00:49:37] Mike: Yeah, I've never heard it put that way. I think that's a really nice picture to paint for an athlete, they can get that, which is so much of what we do is being able to communicate and educate in a framework that the athletes that we work with get, because sometimes you be like up here over their head and they don't get it. But that paints a picture of like, hey, if you just bring yourself, if in all of yourself, you're going to be fine.
[00:50:03] Josie Nicholson: That's terrifying, you know, like, because what if you put your whole self out there with everything you have, and it's not good enough. What's gonna happen sometime, you know?
[00:50:17] Mike: It does, yeah, well, after college and through doctored. It happens all the time for me.
[00:50:25] Josie Nicholson: You know, I did this, I was thinking about this the other day. And this is kind of a stretch of an analogy, but in my mind, it was perfect because of the feelings involved. So my son, four years old last year, was so excited about Christmas, and he is just so cute. And I would give him the world. So he said, we should decorate my room. And so I was like, do you want to decorate your room? And he's like, No, but I do want to decorate it. And I was like, buddy, I am with you in so many things in life right there. I wanted done, but I don't necessarily want to do it. I had gotten off work early one day, and I went, and I went crazy Decker, I decorated room, I put a little tree in there. And I decorated the tree and I put like lights around and everything like that, and I was so excited. I was like, this is gonna be so awesome. It's gonna be so great. He came home and he looked at it, and he's like, mom, there's nothing on the ceiling. He was just like, he loved it after, but he had this picture of his in his mind of how it was going to be. And, you know, and my feelings were hurt, like, and so that happens both ways, like, where you put your heart and your soul into something and somebody else's like, and the mistake I made was that I didn't accept that it wasn't for my son. You know, because it really was like, I wanted to decorated, you know, for him and all that kind of stuff. But then also we go in with expectations thinking, you know, we want the tinsel on the ceiling the whole night, and we miss the amazing tree that has been built for us.
[00:52:12] Mike: Right, exactly. We're focused on what we don't have verses being grateful for what we do have, and that's just struggle.
[00:52:22] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, that’s just maintaining the focus that's going to be sustainable when we're going through transitions.
[00:52:28] Mike: Absolutely.
[00:52:29] Josie Nicholson: So important.
[00:52:30] Mike: So important. All right. So two more questions.
[00:52:33] Josie Nicholson: Yeah.
[00:52:34] Mike: One is, are there any books that you suggest to your athletes or recommend to your athletes that you think can help them?
[00:52:45] Josie Nicholson: Yes, absolutely. Did you want the names? I'm just kidding.
[00:52:50] Mike: Yeah, and they are?
[00:52:53] Josie Nicholson: So the one that I ended up actually recommending the most is, “Daring Greatly” by Brené Brown. It's about this idea of putting your whole self out there and experiencing the fear, and why do we have that fear? And how to push through that and why would we want to push through that. The second one is actually “Darren Hardy's” Compound Effect, which is a short read very, very practical, about just building on tiny, tiny differences. And having the belief this the share competence, that it's going to play out. And the other one, hang on one second. The other one, I was looking up there that I ended up recommending a lot is the power of habit. Because it's a fun read. Now, there's a lot of, ton of fun information in it. But I mean, good information. That's practical, but it is a fun read.
[00:53:56] Mike: The power of habits, one of my favorite books. Probably one of the most influential books that are right, I've read daring greatly too. And I love Brené Brown stuff, I have not read the compound effect. I'm gonna have to check that out, especially if it's a short read.
[00:54:09] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, it’s a short read, its super practical. It's like okay, here's three things you do because of the information in this trap chapter. So really good for people looking for practical things to incorporate.
[00:54:21] Mike: So the last question is, and I asked everybody, if there's one suggestion you could make to a student athlete who's listening, particularly high school student athletes who are moving up to college, what would it be?
[00:54:36] Josie Nicholson: Love the game or find what you love.
[00:54:40] Mike: Sounds good to me.
[00:54:42] Josie Nicholson: Yeah. Well, I mean, because there's so much around. I mean, do you love the game, or do you love the notoriety? Do you love the game or do you love the look on your parent’s faces when you score? Do you love the game or do you love the free ride to college, which, I mean, don't discount that if you can do it as a job. It's better, I've done the math with so many athletes man about, okay, if you got a job, let's look at what you'll be making and what you could, how many hours you could work and go to school. And the math just doesn't work out. You know, so if you can work that job, it's an intense job, it can be better than some other jobs. So there's, you know, no issue with that, but know what you're getting into. And if you don't love it, find what you love and go for that.
[00:55:33] Mike: It's a good advice.
[00:55:35] Josie Nicholson: Yeah.
[00:55:36] Mike: Well, thank you for coming on. It was great talking to you again.
[00:55:39] Josie Nicholson: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate this.
[00:55:41] Mike: It’s my pleasure, this is great. And hopefully we can do it again sometime in the future.
[00:55:45] Josie Nicholson: That would be fun.
[00:55:46] Mike: Thanks Josie.
[00:55:47] Josie Nicholson: All right. Have a good one.
[00:55:48] Mike: You too.
[00:55:49] Josie Nicholson: Bye.