What are Dr. Travis Dorsch’s best principles for youth sport parenting?
Like you, I am a youth sports parent. Even the most enlightened parent can have a difficult time doing the right things for their kids when it comes to sports. All of us want the best for our children, but sometimes our actions don’t exactly align with our intentions because emotions get in the way.
My guest on this episode, Travis Dorsch, is Associate Professor and Founding Director of the Families in Sport Lab in the Department of Human Development and Family Studies at Utah State University. He is also a former Division I and professional punter and placekicker.
In Episode 32, Travis shares his best principles for parents who want to put their children in the best position to succeed in sports and life. He shares some very personal stories to illustrate how he came to embrace this field.
My suggestion to sports parents is do your best to put yourself in your child’s shoes. Of course we want to guide them to success, but sometimes doing so requires us to appreciate their perspective and take our hands off the wheel, so to speak.
I want to thank Travis for his kind generosity and the wisdom he shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can learn more about Travis and his work at https://familiesinsportlab.usu.edu.
To learn more about how mental performance coaching can help your mind work FOR you rather than AGAINST you, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back in two weeks for Episode 33!
[00:00:01] Mike: Hey Travis, how are you?
[00:00:02] Travis Dorsch: I'm good. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:03] Mike: Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. It's great to have you here. I guess the first question I asked you is, what inspired you to get into the sports psychology field?
[00:00:12] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, really kind of a lifelong story, actually, you know, whether I knew it or not, I mean, I think I was always sort of being groomed to go that direction. Always a youth sport athlete growing up a number of team sports and individual sports. When I ultimately went to Purdue in the late 90s, for my undergraduate Degree into play football and baseball, I was a developmental psychology major. And I, as my degree path went on, as my sport career went on. As an intercollegiate athlete, I kept thinking, like, where's the intersection of these things, kind of who am I, we always, you know, we always think about that in college, or we shouldn't be thinking about that in college. And, you know, sort of that the intersection of being an athlete, being a son, ultimately now being a father and I was I just became really interested in sort of the dynamics of family involvement in youth sports. And that was ultimately when my NFL playing career was done in 2005, when I came back to grad school to pursue my masters, it was ultimately the direction I went was to focus in on the psychology of sport and exercise, recreation, physical activity, but really, with a focus research was on family's involvement in that and how families are shaped and change over the course of a young athlete's career.
[00:01:24] Mike: Yeah, I mean, obviously, that's something that we have in common. It's something that I'm very interested in. And this is my second career. I started at much later than you did, in terms of, you know, our ages but yeah, that was one of the reasons why I get into it. I have children, and I'm surrounded by you sports, and I saw a lot of things that maybe didn't make me so comfortable. And so trying to understand why things happen the way they do, and how can we make them better? Sounds like you're sort of in the same boat, but I didn't know that you are a baseball player as well at Purdue. So tell me about that like what was it like to make the choice to be a two sport athlete? Like, what was that experience? Like for you I mean, that sounds like a lot of responsibility to, to hold on to your plate.
[00:02:04] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, I mean, you know, back to the recruiting phase, when I was a senior in high school, you know, I tended to think of as a high school athlete baseball as my sort of first love my passion. You know, what I wanted to do, football seemed to be as I got through my career, what I knew was gonna end up paying the bills. Basketball was maybe what I had the most fun at just out there with the guys ripping up and down the court. And then track was just something to do in my spare time. So it was a force sport athlete, I really had a lot of diversity across what I was doing a lot of different teammates, different coaches. I think that kept me fresh every season to really be locked in and engaged with whatever season was happening at the time. But I knew it was kind of a non-negotiable when I was going to make the college decision that I wanted to play baseball and football. And of course, I was being recruited mostly through football programs, and of course, trying to work with the baseball coaches to kind of figure out if I had a home there as well. And that really helped me narrow down during the recruiting process where the universities were that I had an opportunity to go. So look, landed on Purdue. No regrets. I absolutely loved my time in West Lafayette, and in the big 10, and was really blessed to play for a football coach, who allowed me to play baseball in the spring and have a baseball coach there at Purdue, Doug Schreiber, who obviously knew that first priority was always going to be football, and I'd be there when I could.
[00:03:30] Mike: Yeah. So who was your coach or Purdue, Joe Taylor?
[00:03:33] Travis Dorsch: Joe Taylor, yeah.
[00:03:35] Mike: And he was cool about you playing baseball?
[00:03:37] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, I mean, at least outwardly. I mean, I think again, it was sort of a non-negotiable I think, for me at the time, you know, at the time of recruitment that I wanted to at least try and pursue both, and I only ended up doing it for my first two years after my, you know, my freshman spring and then my sophomore spring. And then once we got around to my junior season, again, sort of seeing the writing on the wall, saying that, look, the pathway to becoming a professional in baseball is a lot longer and more tedious than it is in football. The talent was starting to emerge more in football so focused on that my final two years, and that was a smart decision I think. I had an opportunity to go play in the league for a few years and over in Europe a few years after that.
[00:04:19] Mike: Very cool. Were you always a punter kicker in high school, or did you play other positions?
[00:04:25] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, I was actually started as a freshman, I was a quarterback. And then sophomore through senior year, I was a wide receiver. And I played wide receiver on varsity, some defense not a lot. And yeah, obviously the cream rose to the top with the kicking in the punting, and that's where the scholarship offers came in. I did have some offers as a wide receiver as well, but to smaller schools, you know, big guy six, five and a half wasn't you know, I didn't blow anybody off with my 40 times. So I would have been a possession receiver type guy had I chose to go play wide receiver and I was a solid wide receiver but to get to the big time programs, I knew that the kicking and punting was going to be the ticket
[00:05:02] Mike: Boy as a kicker and punter do you have a unique body type. I mean, almost 6’ 66” I mean, you don't see a lot of kickers that that size. So in terms of generating power, I had to imagine that was a huge advantage for you.
[00:05:13] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, it's funny. I wish my old strength coach was on here because we became best friends. The minute I arrived on campus. I came in at 6’ 5” and about 175 pounds. I mean, I was a stick coming out of high school, super athletic, just not, you know, hadn't matured into my body at. And in about a year and a half, by the beginning of my sophomore year, he had taken me to 6’ 7” 235 pounds. So I'm not sure if they were trying to turn me into a tight end or what? Yeah, we spent a lot of time together in the weight room, we spent a lot of time together at training table folding peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and ordering 11pm pizzas.
[00:05:55] Mike: I mean, but that's a pretty good segue though, because that's just sort of that's like one example of what it's like to go from high school to college in terms of, you know, not only the physical demands of it, but the mental and emotional demands, what was the transition from like, for you from high school to college sports and just college in general?
[00:06:15] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, I mean, that's you know, it's a unique question. I think everybody is in of one, in some respects. Like, for me, a small town kid coming from, you know, Montana, out to the Midwest, you know, landing in a spot where I'd never spent much time. Indiana was very different. I think the hardest thing for me, I started as a true freshman. So there was no sort of redshirt acclamation period. It was like, I'm on campus training camp for three weeks. And then I'm in the LA Coliseum playing my first game against USC and August 31st, in 98. And, you know, I recall that not affecting me so much. I mean, athletes, they do what they do. For me, I think was the social, the emotional, the being a long way from home around new people, a different culture, in some respects. So the homesickness, I think really struck me that first semester. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of things to consider, you know, whether a kid is in state out of state, even international, whether a kid is close to home has a social support network around them or not. One thing that Purdue was great at is you always felt like family. And there were, you know, there were families in West Lafayette, the athletic family on campus, the administrators on campus, and even some professors, and of course, my teammates that, you know, that take you in and that make you feel at home. But still, that first semester transition was really hard to get great advice from one of my confidence that I you know, that I shared with she was one of our academic advisors there on campus, and I broke down and I was crying in her office saying, I can't do this, I got to go home and, and she sat me down and she said, just get to Thanksgiving, you know, just get to Thanksgiving. And so I did that, and then the football season's over and then you know, we're preparing for a bowl game and just get to Christmas, get your Christmas and then after the bowl game, you get to you know, get home for a couple weeks before the new semester starts. And I think then it started to settle in that okay, this is my new family. This is where I want to be and things are trending upward. So it's hard, man, it's really hard for athletes, especially because they're there's really no YUTAN you know, especially to sport athlete. It's 24/7 right, when you're not sleeping, you're either in class or you're at your sport activity for the day. So I think it's a double edged sword in some respects. It's a really good thing. And in some respects, it's hard because there's no time to really even acclimate.
[00:08:30] Mike: Yeah, it's interesting because I was, my career ended at the end of high school, and I was a three sport athlete. And then I went to Michigan State and I grew up on Long Island. So I had the same experience in the sense that like, the culture in the Midwest was completely different from where I grew up. And then you're going to this massive University and you don't know anybody you don't have any support network and I didn't have the athletic family or I didn't have the athletic network. And you just like well, do I really belong here and I remember going home at Thanksgiving that first year just being like Oh, thank god you know, like I get to go home and like feel comfortable again, but it was the same thing after that first year it was like bumpy but then after that, you just settle in and it becomes you know, your second home and it sounds like you had a great experience at Purdue which is always good to hear not everybody has a good experience in college.
[00:09:17] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, absolutely did. Although I remember gaming East Lansing you might even been there I think it was the 2000 season when we ultimately ended up going to the Rose Bowl with Drew Brees and we had a great red spot that year. And we get down to the final two games and we're leading the standings were a game ahead of Michigan, a game ahead of Ohio State and I think a game ahead of maybe Northwestern and we're going to East Lansing who was they were not great that year three and six maybe it wasn't like that. It was just one of those kind of dreary November, cloudy, spitting rain and we just laid an egg in that game and we lost in East Lansing only scored 10 points. I think it was ugly and we got it in the locker room and on the plane ride home. And fortunately that's we needed to lose behind us last behind us. And then we went into our final trophy game the last game of the year against Indiana only needing to win to get to the Rose Bowl and we did, so that was a kind of a storybook ending with a blip in the radar there in East Lansing.
[00:10:14] Mike: Tell me about your Rose Bowl experience because I as a college football fan, my favorite thing to watch for sure. I always even I mean before I was even a big 10 student, like the Rose Bowl always struck me as like the greatest place to ever lace up a pair of cleats and step on the field. I mean, what was your experience like in the rose at the Rose Bowl?
[00:10:38] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, that describes it. I mean, it's a, if you've never walked on or seen the turf there in Pasadena, it's think about your golf courses putting green. I mean it is manicured with eyelash scissors, you know it is it is a beautiful thing. And so you have to walk out they're coming from the Midwest, you know where it's either in my day, either AstroTurf or long thick grass. Walk out there, you're in California, you got the San Gabriel’s in the background, you got the pageantry of the big press box in the bowl and the rows on the stadium, and of course, from the time you arrive on a big 10, or I imagine a PAC 10 at the time campus, it's you know, it's, that's the goal. That's what's on your locker room wall, that's what's in your team meeting room, you know, whiteboard. So to arrive at that and to achieve that destination and really achieve that goal as a team. I think it brings you so close together, you know, anytime you're with a group of people and you achieve a goal together, it's, it's awesome. So yeah, it was awe inspiring. But for me as a kicker, I think the most impressive thing was that turf man, it was like, kick it off with cutting green, he almost didn't want to touch it you know.
[00:11:45] Mike: Could never go back. So, I'm curious, well, when you were in college, did you have access to sports psychology services or mental coaching?
[00:11:55] Travis Dorsch: It was you know, it's just starting to come in vogue. And we had at Purdue we had a consultant that came up from Indianapolis from the St. Vincent's medical team that would come up and do some consulting but we didn't have an in house psychologist. I would say today, most of the power five programs do probably multiple people on campus. So you know, I never really utilize that service as an athlete. Although I was always interested in that connection, that brain body connection, especially for someone like kicker it's you know, golfers kickers, pitchers that people that do these repetitive things over and over and you got to be kind of locked in and zoned in and I can definitely see and value the benefit today and wish I had you know wish I had played in an era where it was more prevalent but yeah, it really wasn't yet in the late 90s, although it was kind of coming in.
[00:12:47] Mike: Okay, did you ever go through a period in college where maybe you were going through a slump or something or you felt like you're a little bit more in your head than you would have liked to be and you went through a rough stretches as a place kicker or a punter?
[00:13:00] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, plenty. I think look, it's gonna happen if you play long enough and at a high enough level, you're gonna have some lolls in your production and the my sophomore year in particular, in particular, you call it a sophomore slump, whatever, you give it a neat name, but I had a great freshman year kind of came on the scene was a freshman All American. And then, you know, sophomore year wasn't great, had a number of kicks blocked. We went to the bowl game, we were in the Outback Bowl down in Tampa, Florida, and had missed three field goals and an extra point. We end up losing were up 25. I think 25 nothing at halftime, or 25-3 at halftime, we end up losing 28-25. So that one's on my shoulders. That was a monkey on my back then heading into my junior year. But look, this is again, you do it long enough. You're going to have some days, right? And I think that's why that support network is so important. I was fortunate that that my parents were in a position that they were able to travel to all games road and home from Montana. I think they own shares in Delta now because of it probably. But, you know, they were there. They were a huge support network and of course my own campus support network. So it's tough. It's tough. You know, when you're a kicker or a quarterback, I think all eyes are on you every play your left guard for head or an outside linebacker, you can make a mistake and the only people that see it are your coaches on film on Sunday. But you know, I make a mistake and it changes the game. So it's a big weight on your shoulders. But also, you know, it's also a great thing for you because you do have an opportunity to make an impact. And I remember vividly a conversation I had with our defensive coordinator Brock's back at the time. He's now the head coach at Illinois State. And he said, look man, you're a punter. You're on defense with us, right? Because every time that our offense is three and out, you are going to dictate where our defense starts. So I need you on our team. I need you to be you know, one of the guys on defense I needed you to put us in a position to win every possession. So that really you know, that was that conversation of course it was more engaged and more lengthy than that but, but that conversation really gave me a sense of ownership of like, look I can, I can really affect the game in our offense or defensive play might go 3, 5, 10 yards, special teams plays, you know, kickoffs punts especially, they're going 50, 60, 70 yards.
[00:15:22] Mike: Yeah. And, you know, I think I've thought of it that way. But I think when you tell a story about a coach, who sort of, you know, Incorporated you or sort of made you feel like you're a part of the team, as opposed to just being just being a kicker, like being there by yourself on the sideline, that visual of the kicker, just sitting alone by himself, a lot of the times, when you feel like, Hey, I've got a role on this defense, I'm a part of the unit. That's got to help at least, your confidence and feel like I've got someone's got my back here versus like, everyone's looking at me and if I make a point that I'm supposed to do, and if I screw up, then everyone's pointing the finger. Like, I don't think anybody ever wants to feel like that. But I'm sure there were plenty of times where he did feel like that?
[00:16:06] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, you know, back to the game I share with you the Outback Bowl, where I had that rough, that rough, rough day, worst day of my career, for sure. But the number of guys in the locker room that came up to me and either, you know, just gave me a nod or put their arm around me or part of the body said, look, like we're all we get it. We're athletes, you have days, you know, that was a big source of inspiration and motivation for me, because you don't want to let you guys down in the locker room and I did that day. So moving forward, you know, I was reflected on that, like, look, they're not they don't want to let me down you know. I don't want to let them down. That's what being part of the team is all about. So yeah, I think those memories in the locker room are the same kind of lessons that we all want our kids to learn in sports, and those are lessons I lean on today as a professional as an academic, as a husband, as a father, community member. I mean, these are the types of things that you take with you from sports.
[00:17:04] Mike: Absolutely. So you mentioned your parents and their dedication to getting from Montana, which I can't even imagine trying to fly from Montana to some of the places you were at. It probably took them, you know, probably a day's worth of travel in some cases. But what was there, what was it like growing up with your parents obviously, you are very athletic, like, tell me about their role in your development when you were younger?
[00:17:25] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, I mean, they're super, super engaged. And, you know, and I needed them, every kid needs their parents to, you know, help them get through youth sports, especially at the earliest ages. You know, they're your nutritionist, your psychologist, your chauffeur, your launderer, they're everything to you. So they were the kind of parents that supported all of my passions, even when it meant, you know, driving hundreds of miles in a day all around the state to get from the soccer tournament, to this basketball tournament, to this baseball game, you know, back home for lunch, and then off to training for some other sport. I mean, I remember vividly being in the car with my dad, three, four hours at a time, you know, going here, there everywhere, to get to all the things that I wanted to do. And you know, for two working parents who had careers were great at what they did, to be able to kind of put that aside and make sure that me and my younger brother, were able to get to everything was great.
[00:18:18] Mike: That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I have two kids now. And so I know, what that's all about. The commitment that you make to get your kids to where they want to be and to support them. But it's also hard when you have a job, not only a job, I mean, I think nowadays, two income families are pretty common and parents sort of most parents are doing it at some level. But I personally, and maybe this is my bias because of what I do for a living but the emotional investment from parents in US sport, which obviously is a double edged sword, I think, in some ways. But talk about that, like, you know, I know, from your own experiences, or even from the academic side, like, what's your view about, like, how parents get invested in their young athlete’s career?
[00:19:05] Travis Dorsch: It's such an important question. You know, I tend to look at this through like a behavioral economics lens, and to boil it down into one sentence, I'm not doing that the field justice here, but to boil it down into one sentence. It's like, look, when we put money, and time and energy and love into something, we want ROI, we want something, you know, some outcome, whatever that is. Now parents, across families and across communities, there are different outcomes that we all seek and value. But, you know, look, what if I dropped $10,000 on my kid to play basketball and go to a bunch of tournaments and go to some camps and get private coaching and strength training, you know, and get supplements in the in the pantry, all this stuff. Well, I want something for that. First and foremost, hopefully, we want a good experience for our young person in our house. But look, we also want them to have an opportunity maybe to play in high school, maybe to go out and play in college and maybe some kids even have the talent to go in and play beyond that. But we all want something whether we admit it or not. So the key is not changing our behavior as a parent, because of what our goals are. So first and foremost, I talked to parents all the time about making sure that your goals align with your kid’s goals, your athlete’s goals, and the way we do that is by communicating by asking them by talking to them by being observers. The second thing is to not be having what I call grown up conversations around them. The conversations with your spouse or partner that might revolve around money, like, Hey, this is gonna be tough to make ends meet, because we got to do this. But kids don't need to be a part of that conversation. They don't need to know that you're spending $10,000. They know that you're invested, they know that you're there, they know that it's not cheap. Kids talk, they're pretty, they're pretty on it. They're pretty looped in. But they don't need to hear you know, the argument about money or the stress that's happening, you know, how are we going to get them here? How are we going to do this? I got to take time off work, we got to take out a second mortgage, all of those things, because ultimately that leads to a perception then of pressure. The perception that okay, Mom and Dad are really into this, I better, I better do something to show them that I can succeed. Once they feel that pressure, they're going to enjoy the experience less, so they're gonna be less inclined to actually our research tells us to want to continue participating in the future.
[00:21:19] Mike: Yeah, so and when you were talking, I mean, I bet all resonates with me as a professional, as a parent. The thing that I sort of always come back to, in my own practice, as a parent is motivation. Like, and that's essentially what you're saying? The alignment of goals, what's the motivation? Why am I doing this? And from the parent’s perspective, some of its subconscious, like I want the best for my child is sort of the outward way we think of this. But there's all these other things is that keeping up with the Joneses, the scholarships, all this stuff that we may not want to admit to ourselves matter to us but deep down, they do and that's where it influences the behavior. So it's hard as a parent I think, to separate, to say, don't change your behavior, and not show it, internalize it. So the kids not exposed to it. I think that's a really hard ask of any parent. And I think that's kind of been maybe one of the biggest challenges we see in youth sport in general, is that inability to separate because the kids were at so much, there's so much perfectionism that I see in my practice, when every kid whether they're 10, or 20, perfectionism is there at some level, like, I can't make a mistake. I mean, have you done any research on that, or I'm sure you have a professional view on that?
[00:22:33] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, it's really interesting. I actually have a grad student across the across the hall here. Who studies perfectionism in young athletes and, you know, it gets it's really it's an interesting thing to think about, like a chicken and egg type question, does the perfectionism come first and lead one to be on an elite trajectory as an athlete, or when you get on that elite trajectory? Does that lead you to become more perfectionistic? And this is, this is an ongoing question. There are multiple schools of thought around this construct. But what I will say is, I think what we want to do as parents, and even as coaches, community leaders and the like, is give kids some space to internalize the lessons that we just talked about. For me, it's sports. So rather than talking about kids behaviors, and outcomes, talk about the kind of person that sport can help them be. And when they begin to internalize or look, it's not, hey, you have to get up early to train, it's look to be the kind of person you want to be in life, getting up early, and training as an athlete will prepare you to understand the hard work that it takes to be a thriving adult. So it's the internalization of the lessons from sports, not just the doing of the things in sports that matters I think. And that's really look, I have a five and a seven year old, they're the very beginning of their journey in sports. But those are the type of things we want to do. It's not, you know, don't slack off, it's, Hey, I know that you're the kind of person that works hard. So make sure you live up to that value for yourself. So we're not talking about and criticizing the behaviors per se, but we're talking about the kind of person they want to be.
[00:24:05] Mike: Yeah. And my children are a little older, which it gets I mean, as you might imagine, it gets a little bit more complicated as they get older, because there's more competing demands, there's less, there's more autonomy on their part, or at least perceived autonomy, like I'm older, like, I can make my own choices, which, as a parent, like I'm in favor of like, if you don't want to do this, I'm not going to make you do it. Because it's not going to be good for anybody, to go back to the behavioral economics. Like, if I'm spending 1000s of dollars for my kid to play travel, soccer, and he's like, rolling his eyes at me. He doesn't want to be there, like what's the point? What I tell my children is, hey, there's a consequence to every action. You don't have to do any of these things, but don't expect an outcome that you think you're going to get because you're not investing the time and energy that needs to go into it to be at the level you want to be at. And if you just want to be okay, that's cool, like I still love you. And I think that they That's something I'm really, that's sort of a working hypothesis that I always sort of operate on with kids is that I think kids, when they're criticized by their parents, the default setting is like, you don't love me. They're not saying that they don't think it, but they feel it. Because then it becomes about the outcome and so, how can we as parents, as practitioners make them feel like, hey, you know, what there's ways to manage this as a young adult or young person, you know, because it's just life. We our feelings, get in our way, our thoughts getting away. How do we find ways to work through it and benefit from it, rather than letting it over overwhelm us? And then take us down from a performance standpoint, and then it becomes this cycle of I'm not good enough? I can't do this. You know, I'm always, you know, I'm not good enough.
[00:25:49] Travis Dorsch: Really well said, I have nothing to add. I think you're on target with a lot of that. You know, and, of course, it varies by kid. And there's a dynamic in the relationship between dad and child or mom and child and vice versa. So I think we need to understand that, you know, some kids need, you know, the yelling, most kids don't, some kids, you know, some kids need the pat on the butt, others don't. So I think we really need to understand as parents, instead of that dynamic with our child, what is their dynamic with us? And then the broader context to you know, is it a recreation league? Is it a competitive league? Is it to travel? Are they heading off to college? Do they have aspirations to play professionally? So we need to sort of contextualize everything we're talking about, but I think our fallback should always be what we call UPR, unconditional positive regard. And that is, look, I love you when loser draw my kids are involved in a few sports, you know, skiing is their primary sport, alpine ski racing. And there can only be one winner, there might be 150 kids in a race. So if my love is contingent upon them winning, it's going to be a lot of no love flying around. So you know, instruments like that especially, but look, even in team sports, where it's kind of 50, 50, like, you got to love them the same in the car and at home, whether things go right or things go wrong. Let me share a story real quick about this. Because back to that game that I told you about that Outback Bowl game, I missed three field goals. I don't want to go in the locker room, first of all. And then when I'm in the locker room, I don't want to come out of the locker room to meet you know, all the friends, family, parents, coaches, and wives, everybody that's out there. But I come out and my dad just looks at me and he says, I love you son and I was like, holy cow. Like, that's crazy. I shouldn't have been surprised. I mean, but I was in the moment. I was like, Oh, we're gonna talk about like, you know what I could have done different what you know, what we're gonna do next time. But that was the simple the simple thing that I needed that he knew I needed in the moment. And I think that's a great lesson, a great model for all of us. I hope to be like that with my kids when they experience failure, which they will and have. So yeah, I think that unconditional positive regard can be super powerful. Just knowing and it goes all the way back to attachment theory and Human Development Research.
[00:28:11] Mike: It does, doesn’t it?
[00:28:12] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, just knowing that look, I've got, I've got my secure base. I've got my people, they're going to love me no matter what I do. And, you know, I get arrested for doing something stupid and mom or dad or both, or siblings, whoever my people are, they're gonna be there for me. Just knowing you got that base is really important.
[00:28:29] Mike: Yeah, I mean, that's a rabbit hole, we could go down and I don't think I want to. But attachment theory, I'm a big believer in the idea that if you have a secure base, you can go out and take the risks that you need to take in any aspect of your life and feel like I can go out there, make a mistake, and then come back and I'm still loved. And that's, and I think that applies to sports. And so it kind of leads me to sort of your professional interests in terms of academic interests in terms of parent education. Talk to me about where you think the state, like the need for parent education is in the youth sports space?
[00:29:10] Travis Dorsch: Oh my gosh, it's such a big question. It's really the following question you know. We've done some of this, we haven't completely hung our hat on this coat rack. But you know, one thing that strikes me is that we talk all the time about best practices. And to me best practices implies that there's sort of one right way to do things that we can kind of put everybody in this black box and say, do this, and it'll be a successful parenting experience. I don't necessarily believe in that. And especially now that I'm a parent, even with just two children, I know that they need to be parents differently. And I'm a coach too, and a club director. And I know that all the kids on the team need to be engaged with differently. So rather than best practices, what I'd like to talk about with parents is best principles. There are a number of principles that we talked about things that do sort of fit in this umbrella over the parent child relationship in sport, that we can give parents these tips, these tools, these strategies and say, now you need to make this your own. Now you need to make this your family's thing. You know, and I think when parents can do that when they can understand what the science says, understand what practitioners would offer, and then kind of make it their own, but not subscribe blindly to someone else's philosophy, then we're in a good place. So they have their lighthouse, their North Star right there, their sort of Compass, if you will. But at the same time, it's got to be the family developing their own mantras, their own sort of engagement practices, their own way that they deal with success and failure. And then for each family, that turns out to be a little bit different.
[00:30:42] Mike: Yeah, I love that. I mean, how much do you find citing the evidence, or citing some bigger authority helps in communicating that message, it becomes less, I would imagine becomes less personal and it becomes more objective for them. They're not taking it as a criticism. They're looking at it objectively and saying, hey, what can I do with this information versus you're telling me what to do?
[00:31:08] Travis Dorsch: That's right. Yeah. So look, evidence is important. And I think everything we do, or at least that I do as a scholar practitioner, should be evidence based. But at the same time, they don't want me, you know, ripping off lines, and then citing my sources. They're not a research paper. So I think what I've found, at least in my experience to be most effective with parents is to give them examples and vignettes and stories. Stories can be so powerful. I mean, even with you, I've shared some of my stories. And then always in the end, come back to how and why that's the best principle for parenting your kids in sports. So yeah, I think you know, the vignettes, the stories, they can be super powerful. They can draw parents and because exactly what you said earlier, it taps into their emotions. They've all either seen that parent or been that parents or seen an example of what I'm talking about. So it becomes more visceral, rather than just oh, hey, you should do A, B and C and don't do D and F site, you know, June 2020, that's pretty dry. It doesn't really move the needle in terms of their behavior.
[00:32:15] Mike: Yeah, well, right. And that's one of the challenges we face as practitioners is that fine line of taking what tends to be wonky talk sometimes and making it plain English for the people that we're serving, whether it's a young athlete, a parent, coach, whoever. And that's part of the art of what we do? It's not, it's combining this the science and making it you know, digestible for people who don't want to, like, glaze over when you're citing research papers.
[00:32:45] Travis Dorsch: Look, if you're working with, you know, a fairly affluent family from Long Island, let's say, well, you know, a white, affluent family from Long Island with a kid at a prep school, three sport athlete, that's going to be a different friendly context, then if you move, you know, down the shore, some number of miles and get an inner city kid from the Bronx with a single mom who's working on three jobs in his New York City, public school. These are different contexts and they must be treated differently. And that doesn't mean that we stereotype or generalize, what it means is that we try and understand each family in their context and deliver the needs that they have.
[00:33:28] Mike: Well, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges in the sense that in the America, right, and I'm sure you you've studied this are highly aware of it. But like, when you go outside of America, everything's nationalized. So there's sort of a top down approach. In America, everything's decentralized, and it's the bottom down the bottom up approach. And so what make what becomes really hard is this idea that, you know, we're trying to give people these principles, but the principles are coming from the bottom. There's Travis in Utah. There's Mike in New Jersey, there's, you know, Mary in Maryland, and Joe in California. And we may all have a similar approach, but it's not the same set of principles. So can you talk about sort of the challenges about the way you'd sport operates in America, in terms of educating people in a uniform way, and it just becomes a sort of mishmash, because there's so many things going on?
[00:34:20] Travis Dorsch: It has been traditionally I think there are a number of groups, one that I was involved, I was a member of the Science Board for this group was the Department of Health and Human Services, and they put together sort of a youth sport, a youth sport consortium of sorts, really, to try and centralize to borrow your word. Our understanding of youth sports, our design and delivery of youth sports that's had some success at various levels. I think another grassroots group that's doing some great work out of out of DC is the Aspen Institute. You know, they're really focused on they've come up with a number of what they call plays. And again, these are strategy energies that communities that coaches that parents can use to engage young people in sport in a more effective manner. So, you know, I think we're seeing now more of kind of what I'll call a sandwich approach where there kind of there is some top down there obviously remains some bottom up with the hope that we can meet in the middle and understand some of what these best principles are that I've been discussing. One of the problems we have here, I think it's not really a problem, it's just a barrier that we need to overcome and really address is that, look, we've got what we might call free play, then we the next level up, we've got sort of recreational or town leagues, the next level up, you know, we've got maybe school sports, we've got, you know, sort of travel AEU type, you know, ODP, soccer, these types of travel kind of what unquote, elite performance opportunities. And then of course, we've got participation in intercollegiate athletics, and only in America is sports, so yoked to our educational system, at the junior high middle school, high school, and college levels, that we really are a very unique case study in how sports is designed and delivered. It doesn't happen that way in the rest of the world, where everything is club based. You know, and so you join a club in whatever sport or sports you want to be in there, there really isn't like that community programming, there definitely isn't that school programming. So it's also decentralized. And I have some experience in Germany, I have some great colleagues in Australia, in the UK, they talk all the time about how look like you pick a sport, you join a club, and you're part of that club and they, you know, they deliver sport to you. And I think we can both learn a lot from them. And they can learn a lot from us. I think there's some value in both systems, and neither of us are doing it perfectly. But you know, look, there's a lot, I think that we can be doing better as a country. And much of it boils down to parent engagement. And, you know, look, I've got some job security here, I think, for the next 20 or 30 years in my career, but ultimately, in the way our system is designed here in America, we can't do it without parents. So what we can't do is put up a wall and say, we need to exclude them, they have to be part of the solution, you have to bring them in, we have to involve them.
[00:37:20] Mike: I mean, they're the consumer ultimately, right, they’re the ones?
[00:37:23] Travis Dorsch: Yeah. I think you know, where I should have finished with that is look, because they have to be involved. This is why education is so important. This is why a number of groups ours included, are working on parent education. So if and when they're involved, they can be doing it in the most appropriate way. And yes, I think this is something that sports leagues struggle with all the time, there are two consumers, there are the child to whom we're delivering them and they're the parents, to whom we have to keep them happy about the way we're delivering the product because they are paying the bills.
[00:37:54] Mike: Right. And that ultimately comes down to communication, I think you said it before. At the end of the day, everyone's gonna have a different agenda, sort of a loaded word, and they're gonna have a different communication style, and they're gonna have different objectives. But if we're communicating with each other, about what we're trying to achieve, we may not always agree, but we can work towards common ground when there's no communication. That's where things really kind of hit the skids. I think the other question the other piece of this, and I'm not sure how involved you are, but I'm sure you have a view on it. Coaches, Coach education and where the coaches come in, because that's something that I mean, I'll just speak anecdotally, you know, the lack of skill and awareness and knowledge of the coaches in in that I see in my area is really disturbing in terms of not even the skilled stuff, the on field stuff on court stuff people get, I think for the most part, it's to go back to what you were saying, the ability to relate and assess, and tailor coaching to an individual, I feel like is sorely lacking. So like, what's your view about the role of Coaches and Coach Education in this sort of big picture?
[00:39:11] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, Coach Education is so important. And I think we being the United States do a great job of this at the higher levels. When you think about the national governing bodies that fall under the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee umbrella, I think there's 56 of them in all across all different sports. Nearly all of them, I think I've interacted with many of them, but nearly all of these NGVs I think, have somebody that's in charge of coach development. And they do a great job and they try and do a job top down of educating coaches. But of course, most of the resources when you think about, you know, the USOPC and what their aims are, most of those resources are going to the elite levels, the top of the pyramid. So what are we doing now for the coaches that are coaching [inaudible 00:39:57]? You know, I'm of the mind that actually we America again, we tend to push all our best coaches to like, oh, let's get them into the college, let's get into the professional ranks, often their best athletes, I tend to think that we should be having some of our best coaches at the bottom to build the base of the pyramid. Now, there's no pay in that. So there's a barrier that we would need to overcome for sure. But another way we can think about it as sort of a trickling down of knowledge of wisdom of acumen, you know, a sort of a mentoring philosophy where these coaches at the higher levels can mentor the coaches at the younger levels. Now, I think with this within the school systems, some programs do a great job of this, like the high school coach will be mentoring the junior high coaches, the junior high coaches will be mentoring the Pop Warner coaches. Yes. So that system if community, exactly, that system will sort of make its way up through the ranks. But look, we rely on a system of youth sport, especially at the recreational level, where it's parents that are coaching. So I tend to think about coaching, and this is where some of the coach education research has gone most recently as really having three prongs. And that's kind of the technical and tactical problem. And that's like, that's what coaches do. But then the other two prongs are interpersonal. So how do you relate with other people, the other coaches, the parents, the kids, the fans, the refs. So the interpersonal side of it, but then maybe what's most neglected is the intrapersonal knowing thyself. And I think it might have been Plato, who said that first modern English, but I'm not sure exactly. But it's so important for a coach to be reflective in nature to be introspective to know where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are. And I don't think we do a great job of instructing coaches in that way for instance. I mentioned I'm an Assistant volunteer coach with our, with our alpine ski race team here in Utah, I have no background, I was not a ski racer. Growing up, I played a number of other sports, I played sports at the highest level, but I was not a ski racer. So I understand the limit of my technical and tactical knowledge. But I also know where I can really imbue myself into the club, and that is with the socio emotional with the child development, you know, with parents, really bringing that to the table. So knowing myself knowing what I bring, and what I don't bring, and then filling in other people around me to do what I can't do.
[00:42:15] Mike: Right. Yeah, that's the way that encapsulates my participation as a Sport Coach, you at the youth level. And I find that I'm a better coach, when I'm in that sort of secondary role like I coach, Assistant Soccer Coach for my daughter, who's 11. And I don't know much soccer, I know enough soccer to be an 11 yard soccer coach, but I'm really good, I think, at communicating with the kids, and helping them understand their feelings and put things into perspective and deal with mistakes and sort of understand the bigger picture in terms of, you know, coaching decisions and things like that, like, that matters. Like technical tactical is important, but it's not the only prong to your point. And I think a lot of coaches just, they don't willingly neglect it but they de-emphasize it naturally. And so it's like, it's always about who's playing where, where are they playing, we need to sub this and that, and meanwhile, you got some kid with you know, a face on the other side of the field, you don't even recognize it. And that's really what's contributing to poor play, not the shape of the formation. And I think there's a lack of awareness, and sometimes it is the self-awareness of the coach.
[00:43:27] Travis Dorsch: And I think a lot you know, how I'd be rich, if I had $5, every time I heard a coach say, well, that's not what they're paying me for. You know, I think, look, we are in a time in society now where we have to think about things more holistically, think about athletes beyond their athletic performance. And understand that they are, I mean, gosh, especially 11 year olds right there. They've got school, they've got family, they've got siblings and friends, they've got homework, they've got lunch, they've got everything, they've got social media, they've got everything they're doing in their lives, sport has been a small part of that. And so it needs to remain integrated into who they are, part of who they view themselves as. And that's the way that we get them to come back when they're you 12 when they're you 14, you know, and then ultimately, with look, you mentioned sports rover for you in high school. But we don't want kids to stop being active when they're done with high school. We want them to go on and find intramural opportunities in college and physical activity opportunities and model that for the next generation and become coaches and referees. So look, we need them to love the experience.
[00:44:29] Mike: Yeah, and to continue to compete into adulthood. I think that there's, I mean, I think you have that experience, you're trying to reach triathlete, is that right?
[00:44:39] Travis Dorsch: Yeah
[00:44:40] Mike: Right. And I've competed you know, I've run on a marathon and I've done a powerlifting competition. I played baseball for 15 years after college and you know, got back into it. And I love it, and I think a lot of people once they leave college at 22 if even if they were intercollegiate athlete, they look back on the glory days but they never, they don't go on to continue To compete, and that's not the goal, right? The goal is to keep competing not only for your mental well-being, but for your physical well-being to be a role model to your kids, all those things. And that's built, the foundation of that is built in, you know, the teenage years when your experience of sport or towards sport is shaped.
[00:45:19] Travis Dorsch: Absolutely, you can take the cowboy out of the mountains, but you can't take them out and out of the cowboy. And I think the same is true in sports. You can take the athlete out of sports, but you should never take the sport out of the athlete. And I think that really speak to the way that you know, you imbue this into a sense of who you are? Your sense of identity that look, I'm an athlete, it might at some point turn into a former competitive athlete, but you never stop being an athlete. So again, and that fits really nicely. I think, with the philosophy I shared from the get go today, which was, you know, I, as a professional, as a husband, as a father, as a community member, I rely on all these lessons. I'm still, I still think like an athlete, when it comes to putting in hard, hard work hard hours at the office, or when it comes to the lessons of being a dad is just like being a coach. So you never lose that it's really important.
[00:46:06] Mike: Yeah, I would agree. So I guess, as we wrap up here, if you had to give one piece of advice to a young person, young athlete, just one thing, what would it be?
[00:46:29] Travis Dorsch: Wow, that's a big question. We're talking kind of here in the sport context. So like, an athlete.
[00:46:36] Mike: Ideally, but…
[00:46:37] Travis Dorsch: I mean, I think the first thing and this what I tell my kids all the time, because they're very invested already as seven and five year olds, in their skiing, and really in their other sports as well. I mean, they're athletes in every sense of the term and I tell them all the time. Love it, right. Love it, and I think that speaks to this idea of internalizing the passion, that it's their journey, and not mine as dad. I don't want them just feeling like I'm dragging them up, you know, to training or to a competition. I want them to own it. I want them to love it. In fact, I'm not perfect at this. But I try and ask them most days when I pick them up from school, and we're headed up to the mountain to train, say, Hey, you guys, do you guys want to ski today? Because I want their buy in? I want them to say yes. Because once they say yes, the buy in is there, I don't want to just pick them up, they're in the car, you know, whatever, they're reading their book, or they're on their iPad, or they're playing a game, they're drying whatever they do to kill the half hour up the mountain. I don't want to just Oh, dad picked me up. Now we're going to do this because Dad wants us to do it. I want them to own the experience. So for me, I want them to love it. The flip side of that coin is, I want them to know that I love that they love it. So I tell them all the time on the chairlift like we're between runs or whatever. I just whisper over their ear, Man, I love watching you guys ski so much fun for me. Because I want them to know that I'm having fun because they're having fun. And I think it look anytime if I tell you right now, man, you're world's best broadcast or podcaster. Sorry. We all like to be told that [inaudible 00:48:10] and we want it to be authentic, of course. But you know, when our spouse comes home and says, Man, you know, you're a great dad. I really appreciate all you do, or you know, when I tell her man, you're really good mom, you know, you're doing a great job. Like that makes you feel good. So our kids need that as well. You want to be told because they're putting so much work into this and they're doing it in many cases to make us proud as parents.
[00:48:31] Mike: Yeah
[00:48:32] Travis Dorsch: So they want to be told man, I see you put in the work and I love watching you do it. That would be my takeaway for parent’s maybe.
[00:48:37] Mike: I think you're the actually, I did a podcast I recorded a podcast that's gonna drop next week with Dino Josie Nicholson at Ole Miss.
[00:48:46] Travis Dorsch: I don't know.
[00:48:47] Mike: Yeah, so she's in sports psych at Ole Miss. And that's exactly what she said. She said, Love it or get out. That was sort of her one point. So two for two on that from the former athletes, sports psychologists on the show. Same question, but for parents, what's the one thing or one piece of advice you'd give to a parent?
[00:49:08] Travis Dorsch: Leave it all on the table. You only get one shot. It seems hard. Seems like man I have I've worked I should be doing you know, I'll share a story. Let me frame it.
[00:49:20] Mike: Off course, absolutely
[00:49:21] Travis Dorsch: Stories and anecdotes are the best. I was out at ski training with the team the other night and one of Joe's these friends [inaudible 00:49:26] little bit older. And she was out there skiing and her dad was in the lodge working on the computer. And I texted him between chairlift rides. I texted him I said, get your butt out here. I said the work will be there tomorrow but you only get so many days to ski with your daughter. We do our laps she does her next round and he's there waiting at the bottom of the chairlift dressed and ready to go big smile on his face. He's like thanks for reminding me. So I think, look, you get one trip being a parent and maybe account.
[00:49:52] Mike: Oh, by that as a parent, I love it. So thank you for coming on Travis. I follow your research, love your work. I think we're speaking from the same book here in terms of what we view to be important. You know about you sports and my parents and kids are doing so. I think this is gonna be really valuable for anyone who listens to the podcast and I appreciate you getting on and sharing some of your time to talk to me.
[00:50:19] Travis Dorsch: Yeah, really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And let's stay in touch and…
[00:50:22] Mike: Definitely
[00:50:23] Travis Dorsch: All your listeners, if you want to check out our website. We're just familiesinsportlab.usu.edu so check out our work.
[00:50:30] Mike: Awesome. Thanks so much, Travis. We'll talk to you soon.
[00:50:33] Travis Dorsch: Appreciate it.
[00:50:34] Mike: Okay.