How does John Lannan help professional baseball players get to where they want to go by meeting them where they are at?
Mental performance coaching is a delicate balance of art and science. While there are evidence-based strategies that have been proven effective, those same strategies must be tailored to the needs of each person. Understanding what makes athletes tick is often the secret sauce helping them to get to where they want to go.
My guest, John Lannan, is a Certified Mental Performance Consultant and former Major League pitcher. He currently serves as a mental performance coach in the Toronto Blue Jays organization.
In Episode 35, John discusses how he applies his craft in the high pressure world of professional baseball. He also candidly shares how his experience as a former player can serve as both an asset and a liability when serving as a mental performance coach.
So, what was your biggest takeaway from my conversation with John Lannan?
For me, it’s that the best mental performance coaches make it all about the athlete and how they can apply mental skills training on the field. As John suggests, this often occurs when we meet athletes where they are at.
My suggestion to young athletes is to make the most of all the resources at your disposal. Not everyone has access to mental performance coaching. If you do, then take advantage of it to help attain your long-term vision.
I want to thank John for his kind generosity and the wisdom he shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
To learn more about how mental performance coaching can help your mind work FOR you rather than AGAINST you, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back in two weeks ready to get better!
[00:00:01] Mike: Hey John, what's going on man?
[00:00:03] John Lannan: Nice Mike, how are you?
[00:00:05] Mike: It's good to see you, buddy. It's been a while.
[00:00:07] John Lannan: Yeah, for sure, it's good to catch up.
[00:00:10] Mike: So we're gonna jump right in. And I'm going to ask you, what's a day in the life of a mental performance coach and Major League Baseball?
[00:00:20] John Lannan: You know, I found myself wearing multiple hats. You know, because of my experience on the field, you know, I'm doing a lot of things on the field. And it's just really trying to find those organic touch points, where you can, you know, do several things. It's either build relationships, you know, that's probably the biggest thing that I do, and just continuing to kind of build off of the conversation we have, and then there's also the work, you know, it's, you know, we only get a certain amount of time, so you got to be, you know, ready to work with a five minute, you know, conversation, because sometimes that's all you get at the beginning. So really just navigating that environment of, okay, I don't have these set one on one sessions. It all ultimately gets there. But at first, it's like just being around, observing you know, and then it's a resource needed, not a resource force. So we really go by the pace of the athletes, you know, they're the expert on themselves. So we kind of let them kind of, they know what they need. Sometimes they just need a little bit of help getting it out. But it's usually just hanging out being intentional at work, being laser focused, and, you know, giving them stuff that they can use to get better on the field.
[00:01:42] Mike: So I mean, every athlete obviously, is different, has different needs, like you said, and they have I'm sure different personalities and different, you know, sort of points of view on the work that you're doing. Like, but on average, like, what's sort of like the timeline for getting someone to buy into working with a mental performance coach?
[00:02:07] John Lannan: That's a great question. It depends on the motivation, I think to apply the work. Sometimes it comes quickly, sometimes slowly. But yeah, it's different, depending on you know, the clutter, I would say, like, how much is there really, the self-awareness to realize that this can benefit them. And sometimes the awareness is low, and sometimes the awareness is like, I can really benefit from this. So it really varies, and it takes patience. Either way, you know, some, some of the hungrier guys, it's okay, let's not bite off more than we can chew. The other ones, it's like they have no foundation. So it's really meeting them where they're at. Not trying to fix it, not try to force it. But just be there with them and really be intentional in knowing where they're at?
[00:03:03] Mike: So how many of your athletes I mean, you can answer this however you want, but how many would you say are guests that have some exposure to mental performance coaching before they come into the organization?
[00:03:17] John Lannan: I think as the drafts kind of go on, I think colleges are doing a better job of supplying or supporting the athletes from a mental performance standpoint. So there's some guys that are coming in with, you know, either someone came in to talk to them frequently, or they had their head coach, kind of make it an emphasis, or, you know, some places had counselors, you know, so it varies, but I think the players, especially college players are having more of a fundamental understanding of what mental performance is and how to have a routine that has that kind of stuff seeped in.
[00:03:57] Mike: Yeah, I would imagine it makes the work easier, right? In terms of, if there's some exposure to it before they come into the organization. Obviously, the way that the Blue Jays do it is going to be much more sophisticated on balance, and probably they might have experienced in college or even high school, but you know, at the end of the day, it's the same idea. Like, players are kind of coming towards you saying I need help, or I want help gotta make the job a bit easier versus having to get them to buy in without having any exposure to it.
[00:04:32] John Lannan: Yeah, I don't even think it's a help standpoint. It's just an enhancing performance. They know that this is something they need, and something they work as much as they want to. So there are cases where they're like, I need help, like, I'm kind of lost, but there's other guys that are just like, hey, I'm just trying, I know this is important. How can I do a better job of it?
[00:05:00] Mike: Yeah, well, it's interesting that you said use the word motivation. And I'm finding that in my practice. I have the most success with clients who are motivated, they're motivated to show up to invest to do the work. And if clients are not motivated, they're probably not going to do what they need to do in the process to get better, at least in the short term. It usually becomes, well, I'm having an issue, or I'm having a problem, or I'm in a slump, or I had when they come forward and say like, Hey, can you help me, which obviously isn't always ideal to put that bandaid on and as I would say, so like, what sort of messaging is the organization giving, or do you give as a coach individually to say, hey, like, you got to work on this all the time, regardless of whether you're going great, or you're going your heads in the tank.
[00:05:54] John Lannan: The biggest thing for me is applying on fields, if they can't see that connection, they're going to be out. But this might not answer the question, but it's law of thirds, right. There's gonna be the bottom half that are not really or the bottom third that are not really motivated, then you got some guys that are a little bit ambivalent, and then you got the guys that are really into it. And I think, as you as you start to work with the, on the ambivalence with the, which means they feel different ways about something, where they're kind of knowing that you need it, but they're also like, I don't want to do it. Once you kind of help those guys out, the goal is to kind of by them being exposed to it that bottom third, can say, okay, maybe there's something to it. So yeah, I think the biggest message is, whatever I'm doing, I'm connecting it to this can help you be better on the field and then a byproduct of that. And what's most important to me is off the field, who they are as a person, like identity stuff, really, the where the awareness really has to come in where you understand your values. So there's certain ways to get to that. And I mean, some people don't want that. So once again, meeting them where they're at. But I think that I really try to meet them as a person rather than a player but sometimes you going through performance to do that.
[00:07:22] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the rule of thirds is a great way to characterize it, because I think I see the same thing as well. You know, not everybody is going to be engaged or into it, or they see the value in it. And there's really nothing you can do about it, then you've kind of got that 1/3 in the middle that could go either way, like you said, and then you got the 1/3, who's like all in and you just got to think about how to invest your resources to imagine, your time's not infinite. So you're, you're probably gravitating towards the players who are really engaged in it, because that's where you're gonna get the most out of the process rather than trying to convince somebody that this is something you should be doing and you know, they're not buying it.
[00:08:01] John Lannan: Yeah, and I don't want to not give that support and resource to those players. I've had plenty of times where I've gone up to a player and be like, hey, what's your experience with mental performance? And like, no, I got it. I'm good. I'm like, great. Okay, that's awesome. Other guys, I'm like, we're getting some groups together to do some breath work or mindfulness. And I invite some guy just off the hip, just be like, hey, you want to come join us? And he's like, no. Alright, and then another guy is like, Hey, have your really incorporated mental performance into your bullpens? You know, and they're like, NO. And then I kind of get into this awareness of just like, what are you thinking when you're on the mound? And they're like nothing. So when you get those kinds of answers, it's like, okay, there's this resistance. And instead of like, telling them, hey, you really need this? It's like rolling with that, and being really patient and getting to know them and finding a way to connect them in a non-forceful way. So, and all those three examples, those guys ended up, we ended up working together. Some one guy took a year, you know, to really open up, another one, you know, another guy, by the end of this five months, you know, it's like it comes, you know, sometimes quick, sometimes though, like I said.
[00:09:19] Mike: Yeah, I mean, listen, it's like the old you know, John Wooden quote, they don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. And if you're being consistently showing up for them, and being present, and making an effort to get to know them, and watch them and maybe point something out here and there, or you're sort of observing and you help them, like that's going to help build the trust. Because you're not just saying, Well, you know what, I'm going to write this guy off because you said no, I'm going to, I'm going to stick it out and make sure that he knows that I get give a shit about him frankly, and that's going to help build the relationship and ultimately earn their trust. And that I think that's probably the thing I miss the most being in a dugout is just that like ability to be there all the time, and not have to do anything but watch sometimes, you know, because, you know, in private practice, you don't always get the ability to observe the athletes you work with, which is a really a detriment, it's a real deficiency, it's a hard thing to compensate for, because you, you, they tell you one thing, and you have to take them at their face value. But if you don't see, sometimes you see something totally different. You're like, well, hold on, like you're telling me this, but this is what I say. And that's a big part of practice is being able to see something that they can't see.
[00:10:37] John Lannan: In my limited experience working with private clients, or private athletes, you know, especially the younger athletes, they'll tell you what's going on. But like, it's always not false, but more so limited. You know, they don't really, they think they're doing it, but they're really not. So I would work with the player, but then I was also in touch with the dad and the coach and I was getting mixed messages. And you know, it's like, that gentle confrontation, seeing it. It's very hard for you to bring that up, hey, I noticed something that, you know, we've been working on, but it's not really showing up in the field, what's going on or so, you know, I kind of I understand that struggle. And I've also, you know, I don't take it for granted the fact that I can be around more frequently, you know, in the last couple of years, just being around the guys on a day to day basis, not feeling you need to do the work, even though sometimes you're like, what the heck am I doing here? Am I even performance coach? Like, you know, the second I feel that, you know, I kind of just embrace it, instead of forcing it in like being like, I need to do this. It's like, okay, be patient, you kind of yourself, the work will come just kind of make the most of where you're at.
[00:12:03] Mike: Yeah, I completely relate to that. Because in my practice, there's some days and I was saying to this to off, you know, before we started recording is like, there's some days where you're working all day, and nothing happens. And you're like, am I is it even like, is there any way? Did I even do this? And but the way I help, reframe it for myself is I'm investing. I'm investing my time, and it's going to be an asset and it's going to pay off. And it's the same concept for you, being there is not just because you're not doing anything, doesn't mean it's not valuable. It just means that it hasn't paid off yet. And I think that's what you just described, which is like, Hey, I'm there, I'm watching, I'm there, I'm present and tomorrow, it's going to pay a dividend. It just hasn't paid a dividend today. But when you're in it, you feel like, what's my purpose here? I'm useless. What am I doing here?
[00:12:55] John Lannan: [Inaudible 00:12:56] the work just patients, you know, you hear that saying, and I'm stealing this is not something I've made up. But like here that saying, don't just sit there do something. A lot of times is don't just do something sit there. And I think that is something that's really important in the work, especially when you're dealing with motivation, or, you know, getting these guys to trust you. You don't, you can't expect a guy to talk to their mental performance coach, or go to a mental health professional every day of their lives. You know, it's usually once a week, you know, by month, whatever. So, sometimes you need to, like, I can't do that either, you know. So it's like understanding those break times how you're going to recharge for yourself, how you're going to practice what you preach by when there isn't something going on, you know, how you're getting better. And I think that's the biggest thing from a physical and mental standpoint, like, it's compound interest, sometimes you don't really see the effects of the work you're doing until later and that's like trusting the process. So I had to do the same thing because I would never tell an athlete to do something that I haven't done myself. I just wouldn't do it. And I think in my experience as a ballplayer helps as well, but you mentioned it earlier that consistently showing up and being, you know, short and punchy and giving them with everything they need nothing they don't.
[00:14:15] Mike: Yeah, so that was gonna be my next question. So you sort of headed me off with the past here, like how much does your experience as a major league player, impact what you do for good or maybe for not so good?
[00:14:30] John Lannan: Well, I never tell players that I played, it's just not my style. I don't want to lead with it because it's all about them. And I want to kind of know them and get them to get to know me and want to be around me without that because to be honest, like that is the biggest advantage I have is being able to play because I get that street cred, I guess right off the bat but I don't rely on that. You know, I know that might get me in the door, but what gets me like, that relationship is me. So obviously, the, the playing aspect helps. And guys are just like, okay, I can talk to that dude just because he's been there. But I also have to deliver, you know, no one wants to hear stories about back when I played, this is what it was like or this is what I did, that's just doesn't go far. They need to be able to apply what's going on to their lives.
[00:15:39] Mike: You there?
[00:15:40] John Lannan: Yeah, I think we broke up a little bit
[00:15:41] Mike: We broke up a bit. So I've never really had done this or had to do it. But I'm going to go back, I'm going to ask you the question again, and we'll just add it out that part see if we can get through it. But, so I'll ask that same question, if you could just kind of restart. So how is your experience as a major league baseball player like, helped or maybe hurt or not helped your work?
[00:16:03] John Lannan: Yeah. So I never really lead with the fact that I played. They end up finding out one way or another, but I think I don't force this, but I think I have tried to embody this, this humility. You know, it doesn't matter that I played, I'm here for you. And, you know, by nature, I'm going to get that extra additional buy in because I did play and I think players are like, Hey, this guy knows what's up because he's been there. But there's by no means do I rely on my career, or say, hey, when I played, this is what I did. You know, guys, naturally ask questions. But I also, you know, sometimes be like, hey, what do you think like, if they asked me certain questions about what do you do when you really felt the pressure? You kind of got distracted. I'm like, what do you think I did, you know? So regardless of my playing career, it gets me through the door. But as far as building a relationship, that becomes part of like, who I am and how I go about the work.
[00:17:04] Mike: Yeah, I think that's a really important thing. It's a very fine line between establishing the credibility of like, Hey, I know this game, and I've been in your shoes versus making it about you, and not them, because that could turn somebody off in any context really fast. Right, so I mean, I guess it's something you probably think about all the time. So, you know, one thing is I struggle with in my practice, or have, at least in the time that I've been doing this is, you know, how and when to kind of use self-disclosure to tell people about my own experiences? Is that something that comes up for you in terms of the work that you're doing?
[00:17:45] John Lannan: Yeah, I think at first, when I was I first started off, there's a lot of times where I would think of situations and really, like, my first reaction is like, Oh, I've been there. Let me tell them what I did. But I think now, I've learned to balance my experience with the schooling and the actual work and it actually helps me empathize. You know, that empathy is a big piece being like, and I'm able to feel that emotion, because even though our experiences are different, I think the underlying emotion is there. And I think that allows me to meet, like, to put myself in their shoes, but to make it about them, you know, because I can feel that struggle, because I have been there. But ultimately, it's not about my struggle, it's about their struggle. So it's like, I can feel the emotions. I know that feeling, but I don't try to, I really don't put it on my career.
[00:18:50] Mike: Yeah, that makes sense. So you talked about, like, you mentioned briefly, the mindfulness or breathing exercises, like what are some of the skills that you are teaching on a day to day basis with the players? And obviously, it varies by person and situation, but like, just in general, like, what are some of the things you're teaching?
[00:19:09] John Lannan: So as a department mental performance, we kind of operate out of kind of three buckets. One is acceptance commitment training, where we really work on accepting thoughts and feelings and stuff as they are not really being happy with them. But understanding that, you know, there's a lot of things out of our control, and we're gonna think all the time. So it's more of accepting that. And then, you know, how do we get to committed action. So there's this mindfulness piece of spending time with the moment in kind of seeing it, how it unravels and not trying to change anything. But that ends up helping players get to this point of knowing what they need to do to get better. That's one thing and then the idea of motivational interviewing. This kind of working with players who are kind of stuck in this in between when they're trying to make it behavioral change, you know, is that something should I stay where I'm at, or do I make this change, and sometimes that can be scary. So really helping people navigate that space. And then you know, base and then there's, you know, the more like a breath work, you know, just really working on like, either it's Wim Hof, or, you know, box breathing, or whiskey bread, like a lot of those things. So we do a lot of different recovery, like, fatalities. Yeah, so it works different. And then it's more the Bibliotherapy, where we just read a book, and the stories they can kind of input themselves in like, place themselves in the story. And you know, that's more of a, I've had some really cool conversations where there's this, like, natural, we'll go into a Ryan Holiday book or Chop Wood Carry Water. And you guys can like, it's such a cool thing where we dive into chapters, and I kind of bring questions to them, and they kind of go for it. did we break up again?
[00:21:07] Mike: Yeah, you did. So if you just start with like Ryan Holiday could probably make, I could probably make it out so say like Ryan Holiday book or Chop Wood Carry Water, and then keep going.
[00:21:17] John Lannan: Yes, so books like obstacles away egos the enemy courage is calling by Ryan Holiday, these books are short chapters. And the guys can kind of take things away from it that are kind of, like applicable. And they can like be like, Okay, this makes sense. And just using questions to kind of draw that kind of stuff out.
[00:21:40] Mike: That's something that I have not done a lot of, but I've thought about a lot into Bibliotherapy. Reading a book is a way to implement the strategies and understand how it works. So Chop Wood Carry Water is a great example of a book that I'm one of my clients who's now a sophomore pitching at Duke. I use that with him because Dukes pitching coach was on a podcast, he's now with I think he's with the Cardinals, dusty Blake, but he talked about that book, and they use that book with incoming freshmen at Duke and I read the book, and I was just like, this book is absolutely ideal to use with any athlete, because it's about the process of being great and a struggle and a story it's short, but it's amazing. It applies to the journey of any athlete, where they can put themselves in that character's shoes and say, like, oh, this is what it looks like, for me, it's not going to happen today, or tomorrow, or this year. It's going to take four years, 10 years, 15 years to get to where I want to go. And if I don't embrace that process, it's gonna be really hard for me to get to where I want to be because it's gonna beat me down.
[00:22:50] John Lannan: For sure. And that book has so many great, like, I guess skills. It talks about authenticity values, talks about gratitude, it talks about trusting the process, overcoming failure, being content with where you are, when you're battling where you want to be. And then ultimately, you find yourself being both you want, you know, you feel yourself being John and you feel yourself being a Sensei, you ultimately want to be your own sensei. So that's a really cool book to dive into. And I've done it a couple of times where, you know, it's been in a camp setting, or just, you know, a couple guys going through post off from Tommy John, it's just these things that when you're not doing as much work on field, you can really utilize the time and get into a book and I love it. That's probably one of my favorite things to do with players. So yeah…
[00:23:48] Mike: It's a good reminder to me, that's something I should be doing more of. And I think that book is a staple. I love Ryan Holiday too. And I think those books are incredible in terms of the messaging about, you know, really embracing challenges and using them to as the path to improvement versus looking at it as a roadblock that's gonna stop you from doing something. So I'm gonna kind of shift gears a little bit now. So talk to me about your time as a player, as a younger player, high school, college, like, what did that look like for you in terms of you know, where you wanted to be the way you thought about things, your process for creating all those stuff? I'm just kind of a big question, but like, just tell me about some of that stuff you went through when you're a younger lad?
[00:24:38] John Lannan: Yeah, I mean, I was never the standout player in high school. There was if I went to a showcase, or even my junior and senior year of high school, there was always guys that you know, I know that's the only way I can put it. There is, you know, these Uber prospects that we're going to go first round, and I was kind of there, you know, I love the game, I was passionate about it, I might have been limited by my strength and my stuff at that time. But luckily, I mean, long story short, I was at a tournament where everybody was there to see this starter. And I came in and did well. And that's how I got my shot with Siena College. And, you know, that kind of same process. And in college, I wasn't the dude, I got, like a partial scholarship, there was guys on full rides. And, you know, I just showed what I could do. And ultimately, my junior year of college, I pitched in the first game of the Mac tournament, and the sky was there from the Nationals and I did well. So from there, I think that's the game that really got me drafted. And then again, you know, I got into pro ball. And you know, I wasn't the guy again. And my first two years I struggled, I wanted to be out, like I was looking at internships, I was, you know, just, it wasn't apparent to me that I was, you know, going to make it. But, you know, I had some support. I can remember one phone call from that same Scout that drafted me or was very instrumental in that. And he said, hey man, we want you to come out to early spring training. And we believe you can kind of do some really great things for this organization and make it to the big leagues. So that kind of vote of confidence really helped.
[00:26:35] Mike: Yeah, that goes back to I think what we were talking about before, you know, feedback. Having somebody validate the idea that all the work and energy and effort you've put into a process is paying off at some level. Because if you don't get that feedback from some, you know, listen, we all want to be internally motivated completely. We want to wake up every day and say, I'm going to go out and do this. But like, the truth of matter is, it's just not sustainable in a lot of levels, and to have somebody make that phone call and tell you like, hey, we believe in you is really important. So how did that sort of I mean, I don't know if this is the right way to put it. But how did that underdog mentality help you as a player?
[00:27:19] John Lannan: I mean, it kept me hungry. You know, I got used to using doubt to motivate me. And you know, we talked about it earlier, it's like before the podcast started, like, that's a pretty good motivator, you no doubt, as long as it's processed the right way. And I think that's what we focus on with players like not trying to get rid of doubt. But understanding what that feeling is trying to tell you, and how it can be used and helpful. And, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't understand that process. But that's what it was like, there was that doubt, but I kept on going and I kept on doing what I could and then it'd be like, these little things would happen, like, Oh, I'm getting drafted. Oh, I'm going the big leagues. It's like, I didn't see it coming at all. Because like I was so focused on, you know, doing everything I can because I always doubted that I would make it you know, from that, because everybody doubted me for so long.
[00:28:25] Mike: So it kind of goes back to what you were saying before about the philosophical approach of the Blue Jays in terms of mental performance, which is to say, you know, yourself best. I mean, what I was thinking when you were saying, given that answer was like you were your mental performance coach?
[00:28:45] John Lannan: Yeah, I think I was and then I worked with somebody to, you know, right before I did get, you know, call to the big leagues that offseason. You know, my dad noticed that I was struggling [inaudible 00:29:00] you know, every time a guy got on base, that guy was scoring. In my head, I was like guy got on. It's like, there's nothing I can do. So I really started focusing on the mental aspect, and it just paid off. You know, we kept it simple. It was like breathing rhythm posture. Like, those are the only things you can really control. And, you know, with some help from a mechanical standpoint, I just went with it. So yeah, I kind of was but from a very basic understanding. I didn't, I kind of didn't overthink about it, either. It's like, how do you think about your thinking and then not? So that's where they're at because we want to do those skills off the field. But once you get on the field, it's like, no, I'm going to fully commit I'm fully going to trust and just let it all on the line. And I bounced, you can't use those skills that you use off the field on the field.
[00:29:59] Mike: Yeah. Well, I mean, but that's to me that's probably in working with young people. And I guess the people that I work with maybe a little bit younger, in general, high school kids are a little bit younger than what you're dealing with in the system. But to me, that's one of the hardest things to teach is that commitment process, the acceptance commitment process, because so many young athletes are so programmed to respond to results. And there's this underlying perfectionism in almost every athlete that I deal with, they can't, it's hard if they can, but it's hard for them to really embrace at least up front the idea of just committing to the process and letting go with the result, which the paradox is, is that if you do that, you're probably going to get better results, but they can't let go of the result. And so unwinding that becomes really, really difficult at times. I mean, do you see any of that in your work?
[00:30:59] John Lannan: I see it in myself, like…
[00:31:02] Mike: True. Me, too.
[00:31:03] John Lannan: Yeah. And then I see it in my son, you know, who's 8 and playing baseball, and it's all this outcome. And I think we're naturally going to look at that, because that's what we can see. You know, it's like, I'm going to do this. And if I'm good at it, I'm going to feel better about it. But if I'm struggling, and I don't see the results right away, I think naturally, we're going to, like, want to not do it. So I think the place you need to, we try to get to, especially with myself is all right, I did everything I could up to this point. Now it's out of my hands. Like I need to completely trust it. If I fall flat on my face. I'll learn from it. But until I get to the point where I can completely let go, I can't really make the most of the moment.
[00:31:56] Mike: Yeah. And I think you touched on a really good point, you know, as I'm reflecting on some of the stuff that I do with my clients, and I tell them this a lot is to say, like, have you really done everything you can do? And I don't think a lot of times they can answer that question honestly and say yes, right. And so I'll say if you don't do this thing, it's okay, that's your choice. But don't be surprised when the results, not what you want it to be. And I think that gives them the permission to look at the situation and say like, do I really want to do this? Because you know what, like, it's not my job, I'm not a coach, I'm not there to like, make them perform a certain way and get a result because I'm looking for a W, like, that's not what I do. And I think that that's one of the beauties of the work that we do, which is to say, Hey, listen man, it's your choice. It's your life. You can do whatever you want. But you got to look at it, honestly, and say, like, am I doing everything I can, and the ones that do probably get to that point faster where they can say, like, you know what, man, I've been doing everything I can. And now I'm just gonna let it rip versus the ones that know subconsciously at a minimum, hey, like, I could, I could probably be better at this, but I'm not doing it. So like, I shouldn't expect anything differently.
[00:33:09] John Lannan: Yeah, and I think we can't promise results. I just that's the biggest that's the Holy Grail. How can you show that the work you're doing is ultimately impacting performance? I think you can get to a point where regardless of the results, you could be at peace with it and process the failures in a helpful way.
[00:33:37] Mike: Yeah. It's funny, I was reading an article, a study recently, exactly on that. So it was a study, and you may have seen it actually, given that you're in the organization. But it was a study about, I think it was a Thesis, so maybe not about, what's the benefit of working with a mental performance coach in professional baseball, like that was the foundation of the study. And what it found was it doesn't statistically it doesn't improve performance. But what it does improve statistically significant is duration of career. What does that mean? The study basically said, people who work with mental performance coaches got better at adoring failure, and dealing with the adversity, and their careers were two and a half years longer in systems because of it, and so that's exactly what you just described. We can't guarantee results. But we can make people mentally tougher if you want to use that phrase, which I don't love, but just sort of came out to stick it out because baseball is to use the cliche game of failure. And if you can't deal with the adversity and the failure that comes with it, you're gonna burn out and you're gonna be like, screw this. I'm moving on because I can't take the way that it makes me feel.
[00:34:45] John Lannan: Yeah, I think ultimately, it's helping them see what the right choice is, because our choices matter. And yes, we do that through clearing out all the clutter and not getting too close. Because what happened and what's going to happen is like, what's the best choice? What can I do now to make me better? And I think that's what makes your career kind of go as long as opposed to it because you're making the right choices from a clear mind and uncluttered heart. You know, it's like, a clearer mind, focus heart, whatever, however you want to say it, it ultimately leads you to make better choices. And when you make better choices, you know, you're ultimately going to make the most of whatever it is, you might, you know, extend your career by a couple years.
[00:35:36] Mike: Yeah. How much work do you do with purpose in terms of understanding why players are doing what they're doing in your work?
[00:35:50] John Lannan: I would hope it's all the work I'm doing. There's never a conversation that I'm looking at. You know, what's the purpose of this conversation? How am I using this time wisely? You know, as a relationship develop, I think it's okay to be like, there's really nothing really to work towards. I'm just gonna be here and be comfortable with. This is just the conversation. There's other times where this light bulb goes on. And I'm like, Okay, this is an opportunity to help them see how they can get better. And that's when the purpose really comes out. But I think everything has some intent, some purpose behind it.
[00:36:37] Mike: Yeah, I agree with that 100%. You mentioned your son, you mentioned your father. So I'm curious about your relationship with your dad, and what that look like, are your parents, what that look like, as you were developing as a baseball player, like, what their role was how they handled things, that's such a big part of the work that I'm doing in terms of understanding parent child relationships, it's a big driver of how I get clients. It's a big driver of like, how I, you know, work with my kids to see that relationship, it has a huge influence. So what did that look like for you, when you were growing up?
[00:37:19] John Lannan: My parents did everything they could to make sure I was making the most out of my talents. They noticed something, and they cultivated that. The only thing that, you know, my parents did their best. When I did face obstacles or challenges, they helped me, like more than they probably should have they, if I, you know, not to get too much into, you know, the trouble that I had as a kid, but they really did a lot for me. And I relied on that, you know, so I even though I might have had the initial feelings of that, I never really learned how to cope with that or process in a helpful way. So when I did meet obstacles later on, that might be a little bit heavier. I didn't have the skills to handle that. So like I said, my parents did their best to support me, but sometimes that look like they were kind of, you know, like a Zamboni. They were just clearing the path ahead of me, where everything was smooth sailing, and kept me like, super focused, but I didn't deal with anything else. Whereas my son, I want him to a fault to experience that and be there support him, but through finding the strength within him to be overcome that stuff.
[00:38:42] Mike: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I listen and I think that, for any parent, myself included, that's the biggest struggle we have, we want the best for our children. And to get to a place where we could step back, and I like to use the phrase, take our hands off the wheel and let them just go through the crap and deal with it and process it their own way without trying to get over involved. I mean, it's really hard to stay out of it. And so you know, that I see that all the time. And it's like, you want to give your kids the best resources and you want to make sure that they're doing everything they can to get to where they want to go. But at some point, you can overdo it and almost do a disservice because you don't know how to deal with it on your own. How did that specifically when you left home and went to college, how did that manifest itself that sort of like now I'm on my own and I got to figure this stuff out and my parents aren't here and like, did it, was it like that a change?
[00:39:44] John Lannan: You know, when I first heard you were doing this, I loved it because I think that was something that I really battled with. I that transition from high school to college, like I had this freedom that I didn't know what to do with it. And without my parents, it's kind of keeping me in check. I was just kind of, you know, didn't have direction when I first started college. It took me a couple years to kind of make that transition. But I ran into some trouble in my college career, you know. Did we break up again?
[00:40:22] Mike: Yeah. So you just start with I ran into some trouble.
[00:40:25] John Lannan: Yeah, I'm sorry. The storms going on, and it just this the internet keeps on kicking out a little bit. Start with start where?
[00:40:36] Mike: I ran into some trouble.
[00:40:38] John Lannan: Yeah, I think I ran into some trouble. Because that freedom, I didn't know to deal with it. I didn't have those healthy boundaries to know like, this is what you shouldn't do, how probably should do. It took me a while. And yeah, if I had, if I kind of had some skills going into college, and knew how to navigate that freedom, I think I would have I don't want to change anything. But looking back, there's obviously things I knew I could have done better.
[00:41:13] Mike: Yeah, I mean, that was always my hypothesis but you know, everybody's different. And it's a lot easier to look back in retrospect and say, Oh, I wish I would have had this versus like, now it's like, why do I need this? You know, and I think that's, I mean, that's a struggle in the work that we do. I think in general, is that idea that we've got to prepare for things that to come. And if we don't know what's to come, you've got to put faith in the process that I'm preparing for something. And I think if you can't see it to sort of use your, you know, example before about baseball, like if you can't see the results, like, what the hell, I think if you can't see what the future has to hold, like, what am I preparing for? You know, like, well, if I work on my swing 1000, I swing the bat 1000 times, throw 100 pitches today, well, I know I got better. But if I put in, you know, 50 mental reps, what's it going to do for me? I have no idea. So we'll just gravitate to the tangible.
[00:42:08] John Lannan: And being on the other side of playing, I realized that a lot of my failures are helping me more than any of my successes. And it puts things hopefully in perspective that's sport, my sport identity is not everything. And that what I'm going through now is often going to make me a better husband, father, brother, son, whatever your other roles are, and your next job, you know, because you went through what you did through in sport, whether you handle the right way or not, that experience is going to help you in the future with whatever you face hopefully.
[00:42:46] Mike: Yeah, I think it does in some form or fashion but I think how you frame it. Some people are able to really look at those failures and say, Wow, man, this made me who I am. And I think some people don't have that innate capability, they look at the failures, and they beat themselves up over it and say, I wish I should have done this and that differently, and they sort of focus on the past. So it just depends on everybody, which sort of comes back full circle to the work that we do, which is you've got to meet each person where they're at individually, and there's no cookie cutter. And I think that that's the hardest part sometimes, in communicating the value of what we do is to say that, it's not going to work the same for everybody. Not every skill is going to work for everybody. Not every, there's no like, formula and I think that makes people uncomfortable. Because then they're saying, well, why am I investing my time in this? And I don't know what I'm gonna get back out of it. So, but that's life, and that's, you know, we carry the message on and hope people will follow us. So, I mean, I guess at this, I would sort of ask the same question about, how did it manifest when you went from college to professional baseball?
[00:44:01] John Lannan: You know, I think those first couple years, it's a transition. I don't think I transitioned very well. It's just a new culture, a new way of living, you know, I'm now, this is my job but that transition, you know, planning every day, throwing every day, being on the road, you know, you're kind of thrust into it. And you know, those transitions really, it took me some time.
[00:44:35] Mike: Yeah. So in terms of like, what it looks like now, in the organization that you're in the Blue Jays versus when you were drafted, you know, 15 years ago. Like, does it look different in terms of the programming or the training that incoming athletes get in terms of navigating those transitions?
[00:45:02] John Lannan: Yeah, they have draft camps, where they come in, and they're kind of given the heads up, what to expect, and kind of some baseline education and skills to kind of navigate what's ahead. So yeah, before it was like, Okay, here we go, he gets figured out. And now the player support is unbelievable. And if a guy's having trouble with it, you know, they have a lot of different resources, whether it's a dietary concern or working out, or, you know, mental performance, you know, there's a lot of things that they can go to, you know, learn how to kind of cope with what's going on.
[00:45:51] Mike: Yeah. I mean, we've evolved so much in that respect, and having those resources and making them very known and obvious upfront is a big part of it. It's the landscape has changed so much for the better, but it's still evolving. Not every organization, a Major League Baseball has the same holistic model that the Blue Jays do?
[00:46:14] John Lannan: Yeah, and that's what drew like, kind of drew me to the Blue Jays there. I just said something was different than anything I've ever experienced in professional baseball, not to say the other organizations were bad. It's just they would like the Blue Jays, were doing something different from Marcia Pyro down to, you know, every coach they hired, they all kind of had this common like, drive, you know, these values that seeped into everything they did. And it was just the way they did it. You know, there's blue jays way this compete together, mastering yourself and being a good teammate, everybody kind of was in strive with those things. And it was so awesome to see that, and I'd still to this day, a parent. And that was, that's what makes me, you know, I go into work every day, ready to go, because I know everybody there is on the same page, and we're going to collaborate and we're going to learn and it's just, it's a really cool thing that the coaches do. And the players are used to it, you know, this is the way they do things.
[00:47:24] Mike: Yeah, it's a culture.
[00:47:28] John Lannan: Yeah, that's my favorite part of the work is understanding. Like, how I could benefit the group, you know, find my place in it? And how do I impact it in a positive way? How do I help build a culture? Sometimes it's me just starting necessary conversations based on what I see, and other times it's really empowering the players to take things and make it their own.
[00:47:53] Mike: Yeah. So it seems like the Blue Jays are the blueprint, if you will, for what the standard is in Major League Baseball now in terms of what other teams are striving to achieve. And I know there are other organizations that sort of kind of fit into that bucket too. But it seems like the ones that may be a little bit further behind the curve are looking at what you're doing and saying, like, hey, this is what we want to be?
[00:48:21] John Lannan: Yeah, I think the whole community of mental performance in baseball, it's kind of united, and we're all pulling for this to be, you know, at the best level can be so you know, there's a lot of helping each other, provide just the best resources. So it's not one, hey, we got to do like them. It's like, we know, based on the industry standards, what we need to do to provide this awesome, like resource, and it's either like CNPC certified, whatever we need to do. And it's a really cool community to be a part of where we all pushing each other and we're realizing where this whole field was. And now where it is. And we had to keep that, even though we're working with different organizations, we're still working toward that common goal.
[00:49:08] Mike: Yeah. And it seems that way, and there's a lot more good publicity out there PR about mental performance in Major League Baseball in terms of exposure, and that's only going to help I think, the momentum to build those resources, you know, at a standard that every club has. A couple more questions, and I'll let you with move on with your day. So I have to ask one baseball career related question. So like, when you look back on your career now, like what do you look back on most fondly, like what's like, what's the thing you look back and say, Man, I'm just so grateful that I had that in my life?
[00:49:50] John Lannan: That's a great question. You're gonna have to give me a little time to think of that. First thing that came to mind was shut those moments where I was super appreciative of where I was whether, you know, it was at the home park or away, you know, there was times where the crowd got so loud. And I was at the pinnacle of it, you know, and it was just this, like gratitude. And just being there and taking it all in and realizing this was a childhood dream achieved, you know, not many people get to do that, where I want to be a baseball player, since I was a young kid. And that same feeling I got when I was at Yankee games, the same feeling I got when I would pitch. So that connection to that childhood dream, and really, just taking in that energy is something that I'll cherish forever.
[00:50:42] Mike: Good answer. Yeah, I got goosebumps when you're giving the answer, because I think every kid who plays baseball, you know, at a certain level wants to be a pro and very, very few get to experience that. And so looking at that with gratitude and saying, like, Man, I got to do something that most people don't get to do, that's pretty cool. Last question, so I asked this question all the time. Like, for anybody who's listening, whether it's a parent, athlete, like, what's the one like, if you had to give one piece of advice to somebody who wants to be better, like, what would that piece of advice be?
[00:51:22] John Lannan: And I think this is my go to answer that question recently. It's knowing where you want to go, like having that holding that loosely. And then doing any everything you can in that moment to get there. So you, when we talk about moment and add results, that doesn't mean you don't have attention to that, like you don't know where you want to go. It's like, how do you know where you want to go? What you're working towards? And then realizing that today, is all I can really focus on.
[00:51:54] Mike: Right. The word that comes to mind there, and I teach this as well as alignment, is what you're doing align with what you want. And if you're doing that every day in service of that long term vision, then you've succeeded. Because it's not going to happen today. It's going to happen 5 years, 10 years down the line. But if you did everything you could, there you go. Great answer.
[00:52:16] John Lannan: Yeah, and I think just the second follow up to that is, knowing what you value, like, what is it about? What do you want to achieve what? How would that be in touch with your values? And as long as you know your values, that compass is going to be heading, you know, north to where it wants to go. I think we get so caught up in emotions, it gets us away from what we want to do, if we listen too much to that voice. It kind of pulls away, but if we stay true to our values, that's ultimately going to get us to where we want to go regardless if we get there.
[00:52:52] Mike: Excellent. All right, so we'll end on that note. John, thanks so much to come on. It was great to see you again. [Inaudible 00:53:00] and let's hopefully when the world one day becomes normal again, let's come down to spring training and say ‘Hi’.
[00:53:10] John Lannan: For sure, man. I love to have you.
[00:53:11] Mike: Alright, take care.
[00:53:14] John Lannan: Bye.