How is Rachael Jankowsky-French helping Chicago Fire FC put the person first in the player-development process?
In my practice, I strive to put the person ahead of the performer. My primary responsibility is to help young athletes improve their mental skills for the purpose of performing better. However, if I don’t show that I care about them as a human being first, then it will be hard to get the buy-in necessary to help the athlete achieve his or her goals.
My guest in this episode, Rachael Jankowsky-French, is the Manager of Player Advisory & Support Services for Chicago Fire FC. Rachael is responsible for helping to develop mental, emotional, and life skills of the young men at the academy and professional levels. Ultimately, Rachael’s role is to help the club ask the question, what does this player need to progress in their development?
In Episode 39, Rachael discusses how the club’s player development philosophy is anchored by four pillars: technical, tactical, physical and mental. Rachael highlights how the Fire values the mental pillar equally and what she does in her day-to-day work to execute on that value.
So, what was your biggest takeaway from my conversation with Rachael Jankowsky-French?
For me, it’s that sports clubs are becoming more mindful of developing the whole athlete rather than just the on-field performer. Integrating mental and life skills training into player development will become more common as the results are revealed in time.
My suggestion to young athletes and their families is to seek out clubs that value the mental, emotional, and social elements of player development as much as the technical, tactical and physical. Young athletes will have the greatest chance to optimize their potential if they are the best version of themselves as human beings.
I want to thank Rachael for her kind generosity and the wisdom she shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can connect with Rachael on LinkedIn. You can follow Chicago Fire FC and its player development academy on Instagram @chicagofire and @chicagofirenext.
To learn more about how mental performance coaching can help your mind work FOR you rather than AGAINST you, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back in two weeks ready to get better!
[00:00:00] Mike: Hey Rachael, how are you?
[00:00:02] Rachael Jankowsky: Hi, I'm good. How are you doing?
[00:00:04] Mike: I'm doing great. It's good to see you again. How's everything been since the last time I saw you in Miami? I guess that was what, like two months ago?
[00:00:11] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, that's about right. I think we're just kind of winding down the academy season here at the fire. So getting wrapping that up and getting ready for next season.
[00:00:19] Mike: Excellent. All right, so I guess to get started, I'd ask you, you know, can you tell everybody about your role with the Chicago Fire?
[00:00:26] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, so my role is the manager of player advisory support services. I'm in the sporting ops department here with Chicago Fire. And I essentially work with the athletes in the academy primarily, but I also work with individuals on the second team in the first team as well.
[00:00:48] Mike: And what's the range of ages that you work with?
[00:00:51] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. So our youngest group is a youth 13 team. So we've got guys on there who are anywhere, you know, 10, 11, 12. And then, you know, some of the oldest players that I work with are kind of in their mid-20s, I would say.
[00:01:08] Mike: Okay, and is it both men and women?
[00:01:11] Rachael Jankowsky: Just men, yeah, it's just.
[00:01:14] Mike: Okay, that's interesting. I didn't know that I realized that is there is that because there's not a female team at the professional level?
[00:01:25] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. So Chicago Fire is just men's MLS team. And then Chicago does have a women's professional team, as the Chicago Red Stars, but the two organizations are not affiliated. So the developmental pathways for each are very separate and distinct. So I'm only working with the player development pathway that kind of feeds into the pro level at the fire.
[00:01:50] Mike: Okay. And so, I mean, I certainly imagine that the things that you do on a day to day basis vary by age group, and level, but can you just talk in general about what some of your day to day responsibilities are in your role?
[00:02:07] Rachael Jankowsky: Sure. So it's a pretty wide range of responsibilities, we essentially. So the player advisory and support services, we abbreviate that into pass. That's something that my former boss, Brian Roberts kind of came up with, he really stewarded it into what it looks like now. And it's essentially a holistic approach to player development. And then we really focus on how do we support players in what skills they need to gain and develop and practice off the field in order to improve their own field performance? So that looks like anything from helping to craft the family orientation at the beginning of each season. And getting everybody on the same page at the start. I work with Cedric who's our academy director, and the coaches and people in other departments, the athletic trainers, that's a whole, you know, global effort to get everybody started each year. And then from there, myself and my co-worker here, Felix, we work through a curriculum of items that vary depending on age, but it's a lot of it is similar topics across age groups. So for example, we will do a social media session for each age group, you know, the you 13 guys are working through something that's very different than the second team, guys, because the needs in the engagement at those ages are so different. But they all span that that topic. So we run the past curriculum through that. And we focus on different areas like life skills that would include the social media example, emotional intelligence, the club's core values, how do we apply those as athletes on the field and off the field, we do all the academic support services through pass. We do leadership training and team building. It's pretty, a pretty broad scope of focuses. And then we also do mental skills performance. Um, Felix takes care of most of those. And then I do a lot of the more kind of clinical and well-being related pieces on an individual level.
[00:04:34] Mike: Okay. And so are those, is there a set curriculum, if you will, by age group that you sort of have like that you kind of employ, you know, season to season?
[00:04:47] Rachael Jankowsky: Yep, we have kind of a rotating annual curriculum so that you're not going through the same thing that you did last year. And you're kind of progressing along this developmental pathway instead of looping around I'm getting around and around. So we have that, although it is flexible. So if something comes up and we say, you know what we were going to address, the club's core value of integrity this week with the U14 team. But what the team really needs this week is a team building workshop, we can switch that right and work with the coaches and the performance staff and the team to provide what's needed at that moment. And then we can always come back to what was planned. So it's a set curriculum, but it's also flexible to fit the needs as we go through the year.
[00:05:36] Mike: So I think the word that came to mind when you just described that flexibility and sort of how you interchange things, you know, as needed as assessment. So, as a group, how are you, in general assessing the teams that you work with, and not just sort of, I'm sure there's like a preseason or a sort of introductory assessment in terms of like understanding the group when they come in, but also doing assessment as they're going on a day to day basis. Where you say, Hey, we may need to employ something now, based upon what's going on in real time, like, how are you taking on that assessment piece of things?
[00:06:13] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. So yeah, you're correct, we have an initial assessments that we go through at the beginning of each season, I usually run all the players through a wellbeing assessment. And then we kind of measure different things related to how they're doing with their socio emotional development, mental health, different kinds of gauging the strength of different support systems and areas that they're working in outside of the academy. So school, family, friends, that sort of thing. And then we repeat that in the spring. So we've got two touch points on the wellbeing piece across the year. And then we also do a nine mental skills assessment with the players as the framework that we use for the mental performance piece. And that kind of gives us a baseline in those two areas to move forward with on individual levels. But we can also get a sense for what where the group is at and what the group needs, what might be most relevant for the largest amount of players within the group on those. And then as the year goes on, we try and keep really close connections with the technical staff and do check-ins with them, and see what they think is needed as time goes on. Because the coaches are with the players, every single day, they see every player every day, whereas, you know, myself, I don't get to see every player every day, because there's 100 plus players. So I really have to kind of focus my individual time on players that pop up as demanding the most individual follow up assessments and needs there. So we really use technical staff as kind of the temperature gauge for the group, and to flag any players who they say, Hey, I've noticed this with a player and what do you think and we do some conversation and consultation there and kind of problem solve with the coaches to see how do we employ all of our resources that we have at the Academy to help that player in the most global sense possible?
[00:08:32] Mike: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because in the work that I do in private practice, I don't typically have that benefit of having feedback from an on field coach, on a daily basis, right, I'm often going by what the athlete, the young athlete tells me, maybe a little bit what their parents are feeding back to me, but I'm not actually seeing them every day on the field. So it must be. So it must be nice, but there's certainly a benefit to getting that feedback to the on field coaches, because they're the ones that are constantly, you know, having, you know, interaction with those players. Whereas, you know, if you don't see that every day, it's really hard to, you know, make up, you know, a complete judgment about what a player needs other than what they're telling you.
[00:09:20] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. I think it's got definite strengths to the model where there's more collaboration and multiple points of view around one player. And I think ultimately, that's really helpful. It does get interesting though, because we have such different lenses that we're viewing the player through. So coaches looking at the player in one way, and maybe the strength and conditioning coaches has another view on it, and then I'm coming from usually like a clinical perspective. And so the ideas about what's going on with a player vary greatly within the staff sometimes, and so then it becomes we have the task of figuring out, okay, whose lens is the most helpful at any given moment, and letting that kind of drive or approach to that player. And then, you know, for me, from my perspective, coming from a social work background, it's always viewing the player, as you know, they're the expert on their own life, it's their life, their viewpoint is the most relevant. So regardless of what anyone on staff or parents are, you know, other stakeholders in that person's development, may, you know, whatever they may be coming to the table with, ultimately for me, whatever the player sees as the issue or the opportunity, or the solution that holds the greatest weight for me, and that's what I use to move forward with that individual.
[00:11:00] Mike: Sure. And that's, and I appreciate that, because that's consistent with the way I work as well, not only out of necessity, but I mean, frankly, from a philosophical point of view, that's the way I look at it as well, you know, because if the athlete feels as though they have ownership over the process, there's going to be motivation to make the necessary changes, or change behavior in a certain way. But I have to imagine that, you know, even if everybody is bought into that model, which I'm guessing is generally the case, you still have this element of, you know, results orientation, even developmental system, which, you know, the players needs or what you see to be necessary through your lens may get overwritten sometimes by the desire to continue to move performance at the individual level forward, and also team performance forward. So can you talk about, like just some of those? Obviously, I'm not asking you to get into specifics, but just sort of how that gets handled in a little bit more detail?
[00:12:01] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. Yeah, I think it does create a really interesting dynamic to navigate from a clinicians perspective, because, you know, when it really comes down to it, the academy is here to improve, to develop professional players for the first team. We're not a therapy office, we're not a social services organization. So everything falls under this, you know, drive of football first. So first and foremost, we're developing the footballer. Now, that's very heavily tempered in my situation by the philosophies that people are bringing to the table. So, for example, our academy director, he will constantly refer to like, you know, if the player is not having fun, what are we doing? If the player is not finding joy on the field? Then how is he going to further develop? How is he going to be a creative player, that sort of thing? And so those pieces that come into play from each individual perspective, kind of inform how we then implement this football first philosophy and what that actually means. So for example, if a player is dealing with, like massive amounts of anxiety, and it's interrupting his development, then it's not ever been a situation where anyone here has ever said, oh, you know, what, they can't handle it. And they're done. Like, we can't work with that. And we need to be able to develop footballers. And if you can't, if you can't swing it, then he can't be here, move never come across that. It's always been, okay, what does this player need to get over this hurdle so that we can continue the development process, which I really appreciate that perspective, from the broader staff that I get to work with here. You know, it could be very different, but thankfully, it's not. So yeah, I think it's a really great team approach here. And it's funny, because I will often be working with a player individually, and then, you know, I have confidentiality with the players. And so I can't share with coach you know, here's what's going on, or here's what we're talking about, and that sort of thing, which is now a known factor. It took a couple of years of coaches asking like, Hey, what's going on? So and so and then me saying, you know, I can't share that right. And now no one even asks anymore because they know that's gonna be my answer. And we've kind of found a rhythm there, but I will have coaches say, you know what, like, I don't even need to know but if you need him during training, like if you need to pull him out. If you need, essentially my technical team with a player's coach in order to work with him on these things, go for it. And so that's huge.
[00:15:11] Mike: It’s amazing, that’s amazing.
[00:15:12] Rachael Jankowsky: It's really unique. But I think it shows that the mind and the socio emotional health and development of the player are considered part of the development process here. If we look at the pillars of football, we've got tactical, technical, physical and mental and the mental piece is really honored in the approach here, and that if it needs attention that warrants time that people are willing to give it.
[00:15:48] Mike: Well, that's, I'm glad you spell that out. Because, you know, I think that's critical. Because, you know, one of the questions that comes up in my work with young athletes is, again, not in the same context. But you know, when I asked them how much physical skill work or physical work they're doing, the answer is, it's a lot hours and hours and hours. And then when they ask them, how much mental work are you doing? The answer is zero.
[00:16:13] Rachael Jankowsky: None.
[00:16:15] Mike: And so, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that the return on investment for mental training is probably going to be a lot greater than an additional hour, say, of technical training, because they've already done so much technical training, it's like, well, what's the margin on that? And if you have a coaching staff that buys into the idea that mental is as important, and maybe even more important, because there's a greater return, then you're actually optimizing resources, because now you're putting more into the player where they need it, versus this perception of like, hey, the field comes first. And then if you have time left over, hey, you can work on this.
[00:16:54] Rachael Jankowsky: Right, right. And, you know, we're still trying to figure out what does it look like to integrate mental performance coaching on the field in a training session plans and that sort of thing. And so we're trying to move towards a more proactive approach to mental skill building and mental health and this sort of thing. Historically, and even right now, it's been very much reactive, realizing, oh hey, somebody's struggling, and how do we support them, we'd really like to get to a point where we can provide players with the skill sets up front so that the struggle is either lesser or delayed, or this sort of thing. Because right now, we really, usually start to engage with individual players when, essentially when there's a red flag. That he's throwing up before a game, or he's in tears, or, you know, he comes and says, Hey, I'm dealing with X, Y, Z, and we say, okay, like, there's a problem, let's work with it. We'd like to get to a point where we can be more proactive in equipping players with the skills they need before it becomes a problem. So yeah, we're still learning there. How to do that.
[00:18:21] Mike: But I think it's really challenging. And I think you also, again, you hit on something really important, which is to say, you know, it's not easy to get any athlete or any coach or any parent to buy into the idea that mental skills training should be done before it becomes a problem, you know, what I usually see as people come to me when there is a problem, because we want to fix a problem, rather than being preemptive about and saying, this is something that we really need to work on, and we don't want it to become a problem. So, you know, I think it's a very common theme in our work. And I think it's also something that, you know, it's a really hard problem to solve, because I think it's just human nature, to sort of just go along with what's been going okay, and then fix it hit the wall, and you go, oh no, I need to, now I need to fix it. But I guess I'd ask you to talk a little bit more about confidentiality, because I couldn't help. But thinking about that, and I understand that, obviously, that's a big issue. Because, you know, as someone who does what you do, you have to honor that ethically, as by the guidelines of the profession that you're in. But also to make sure that the athlete your work that you're working with, knows that they can speak freely, because that's really the only way that they're gonna get the most out of it. So from the athlete’s perspective, can you talk about your, do you see any issues or reluctance to come and talk to you about stuff because they're afraid that it might get back or like, can you just talk about that dynamic when you're working with individuals?
[00:19:54] Rachael Jankowsky: Sure. So I always do I introduce or reintroduce myself to each group each year, right at the beginning of the season, just to give everybody a little introduction for the guys coming in at the youngest level, and then a refresher for the older guys of how confidentiality works. They all know who I am and what I do, but it's just a means of getting that little refresher in on the confidentiality piece. And I usually explain it that, you know, we understand that this is a high pressure development environment. And that that comes with certain struggles, mentally, socially, emotionally, and that's why I'm here. If we didn't care about it, they wouldn't have a Rachael here, right. But the fact that I'm here means that we recognize it, and we're providing resources towards it. So part of my role is that I don't make decisions about players. I don't decide playing time, I don't decide if they're going to be retained or released from the academy. I don't, you know, make any decisions regarding them. And that allows me to have a more open conversation with players, usually when they realize like, oh, I can tell Rachael, something that I wouldn't tell someone else who is going to make a decision about me because they just feel like they have that extra layer of security. If I'm anxious, I know Rachael has no control over whether or not I'm chosen to take a penalty shot. Whereas coach might second guess that decision if he knows that you have anxiety so that provides a little framework for the players. And then I go more in depth and explain what is, confidentiality and what are the limits of confidentiality, if and when I have to break that for safety reasons, this sort of thing. And you know, you have to explain that in an age appropriate manner, because it's quite a broad range of developmental stages that I'm working with. But yeah, I kind of go through that with a group. And then anytime I start meeting with an individual, I go through it again, and we have an informed consent form that we go through, and the parents go through it and just make sure everybody's on the same page. And then I have to be really disciplined about making sure that I maintain it, working in this environment where I am interacting with their coaches, daily and other staff. And, you know, I think my co-workers here make it really pretty easy for me. Because they, they don't even ask anymore, you know, because they realize, hey, you know, the player has chosen to talk with Rachael and that is useful in and of itself. And I don't need to know all the details there. So I've never had anybody kind of like press for information or anything like that, which has been really great. I didn't know when I first came here how that would go. If I constantly be having pressure to disclose information. I guess that was one of my concerns. But no, I've never been faced with that. And it's always been really clear cut boundaries in terms of working with that dynamic, and I guess one other thing is I do when I work with the players, I do ask them almost every time I meet with them, hey Rachael, is there anything that we talked about today that you feel like would be useful? For coach to know or for mom and dad to know or, you know, is there anything that you feel like would be helpful to update people on? And sometimes I'll have players say no, like, there's not really anything relevant even for anyone else to know. And I've had players say, oh, Mike, like, No, this is really sensitive. I don't feel like I don't want to bring that up with anybody. And so I always give them the opportunity to kind of ask that question to themselves. And help them realize that at times, parents and coaches, and they can be, you know, a strength and a resource and an extra support. And I've definitely had players who have taken advantage of that. A few who said, you know, I'll talk to a coach about this. But most of the time, they say, you know, what, can you kind of share this coach for me? So usually when they do want something shared, they'll kind of lean on me to broach that topic with coach, just because it feels uncomfortable for sure. Ted, just bring it up with Coach.
[00:24:44] Mike: Yeah, so that's, I'm glad you shared that. And I do want to ask you specifically about parents. But before I do that, I think that um, one of the things that I see in or the one of the things I talk a lot of bout with my athletes that I work with when they're in sort of the same age range, you know, generally from the 14 up to the college age athlete. And it's universal, despite the disparity in that sort of range is the challenges of communicating with coaches, you know, just in terms of comfortability, and like, I don't necessarily they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. They don't like those uncomfortable conversations. So they sort of keep things to themselves. Is that something that you find yourself talking about with athletes in general?
[00:25:32] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things is, you know, even for you or me, if we walk up to somebody that we know, we see them on a daily basis, and they say, Hey, how are things going, how are you doing? If something's off, and we feel comfortable with that person, we might talk to them about it. But if no one asks us that, we're not just gonna walk up to somebody, even if we see them every day, and just you know, disclose everything that's going wrong, and how we're struggling and this sort of thing. It's just not like a social dynamic that really happens very often. And so it would be naive of us to think that players would feel comfortable just walking up to coach and starting a conversation with him out of the blue, about something that's really difficult. So, you know, there are times that I can think of when a player said, you know, I would like to talk to coach about this, but they don't know, how do you how do you start that conversation? And so I talk with players about kind of making sure that they're connecting with Coach all the time, not waiting until there's a problem. And then I also talk a lot with coaches about, you know, if you want players to open up to you about things, you need to give them opportunities to do that. They're not just going to wander up to you and start talking to you about difficult things. So, you know, hey, how you doing? How a school? How's the family? Like, very simple, like, kind of light questions on a daily basis, you see him every day. So just do a quick check in how's it going? Remember, did they have a test today that they were worried about that they told you yesterday, and asked how did it go? And just folding those kinds of personal connection opportunities into sessions as much as possible so that that foundation of our relationship and comfort level can get created over the course of a season? And then when coaching does say, hey, it seems like something's off, or, you know, I notice some, you know, a heightened level of emotion at the game, or, you know, is when, when it does come time for coach to ask about something that's really going on, they're not starting from zero. So that's something that we've been working with here, just kind of across the board is how does each coach want to approach developing that with players over the course of the season.
[00:28:10] Mike: Yeah, I think that's really important. And I think coaching the coaches in that particular facet is critical. Because one of the things that you learned, I'm sure, and I learned in my training was rapport building. If the athlete understands that you really care about them as a person, it's going to be a lot easier for them to buy into you helping them. And I think what I hear again, these are different levels and in different places. And I think what I hear a lot of the times is, the athletes who are the younger person have this expectation that the coach is going to take care of them. And then when things don't go the way that they expect them to, they don't want to come forward and talk to the coach, because to your point before, if they raise the issue, it's almost like there's gonna set off an alarm bell with the coach, like something's wrong with this player, now, they're going to take away my playing time versus like, you know, hey, there's always this dialogue going on that I feel like I can go to talk to coach, and it's a very big issue much bigger than I ever imagined it to be. But it also has a big impact on performance in the sense that a lot of this anxiety is built up internally and there's nowhere to go with it. And so then it's like, I can't go to talk to coach about it, or I can't talk to my teammates, because I don't want anyone to think something's wrong or I'm weak. Then when they go on the track, or they go out and they go on to the field. They don't there's no way it's all trapped inside of them, and it's causing them to perform at a lower level, because they're constantly under the stress and anxiety of like, how do I deal with this? It's almost like this avalanche of snowball that just kind of builds up. So I think it's really critical. And it's great that it's happening within the organization of, hey, there's a dialogue with the different levels of the staff for saying, hey, how do we cut this off at the pass? How do we get better at this so that we're putting our athletes in the best position to succeed and that sort of leads me to the parents? Because I'm thinking about things from my perspective, which, when I'm engaged to help a young athlete, it's typically, at the request of the parents come to me and say, Hey, Johnny, or Mary's having a problem, would you know, how can you how can you help? So I guess what I was curious about is, is that, are you getting inquiries from parents directly to say, Hey, I think there's something going on with my kid and I want you to talk to them or is that only internal in terms of like, where that's coming from?
[00:30:43] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, you know, I can only think of one instance, where a parent asked me to meet with the player. Yeah, just one that comes to mind. And usually, what kind of initiates me working with a player one on one is either coach, essentially coach referring them and saying, Hey, Rachael, can you meet with this player? Here's what I'm noticing. Athletic Trainers, saying, Hey, I'm working with a player, I've noticed X, Y, Z, or hey, so and so has an injury, here's the prognosis and recovery timeline, and we're going to need some support there or, you know, the older guys who I've been working with for a while they will self-initiate. So it sounds good meeting with all of them every week, all year long will kind of it'll kind of ebb and flow when they feel like they need a little extra support. They'll say, Hey, Rachael, you know, can we find a time? So they'll self-initiate because they know I'm here, they're familiar with the resource. They know how things go and there's the report is there and they know I'm available. But the only other thing that will kind of start me working with a player is the well-being assessments. If a flag pops up on there, for example, where it says, you know, this player is at risk for X, Y, Z, or we see a really high occurrence of one of the things that we're measuring for on that and then I will initiate with a player.
[00:32:28] Mike: And similarly, I guess I'm curious, like, if you're working, especially if you're going through one of those kind of cycles of meeting individually. And maybe it's in season, you're more active out of season, not as necessary that's pretty common from what I see. I'm working with more athletes in season, because there's just a sense that there's more pressure and the consequences are higher, whereas offseason, maybe it's like, hey, I need to take a break from this. And how much do you find yourself if at all, like following up with the athlete, like, I just think about my work? It's a little a little different, but like, you know, sending a text and saying, hey, just checking in. Yeah. How are you doing? Like, do you need anything from me or do you want to meet? Like, how much of that are you doing in terms of, you know, following up?
[00:33:11] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, usually, players that I've met with for you know, around of sessions, I'll check in with them on kind of like a monthly basis. Month ends going, you know, anything new coming up. But it's pretty informal, I guess, especially the older ages, I see them around a lot more, because we're all here at the practice facility. And so you can just see guys in passing, Hey, how's things going? What else is nice about that is you can, even if I'm not, if I don't have a schedule meeting with somebody for a follow up, I can see them, and you can see if something's off. So you know, okay, I need to go catch someone. So today, whereas if somebody else you've been working with, you can kind of tell just through observation, you know, like, he looks like he's doing okay, today. So that's a nice dynamic that I get to take advantage of here is really just seeing them at training or passing through the hallway or at lunch and getting to kind of gauge it that way.
[00:34:19] Mike: Yeah, and that's probably the hardest part of my practice is that, you know, when I was training, I was at a school and I was working with high school athletes, and I was there every single day. And so there wasn't, there wasn't this urgency to always be doing something. But you can always be watching them. See the evolution or if something's up, you could go talk to them, or you could see the expression on their face. Like that's a huge benefit in the work that that we're doing in the sense that like, you're able to observe them from afar without actually having to do anything rash, or collecting that data and saying, like, hey, something's off. And then if there's some sort of fulcrum, you're gonna go in and say, Hey, what's going on? Can I help you don't look yourself seems like that's a huge benefit that in person observation, you know, especially on the field where they're applying their trade.
[00:35:06] Rachael Jankowsky: Absolutely, yeah.
[00:35:08] Mike: So I guess the other question I have is turnover, like, as I think about it, someone comes into the system for the U14. And, you know, I'm sure there are plenty of athletes who stay up until they reached the first club. But how much turnover is there from year to year in the system?
[00:35:30] Rachael Jankowsky: There's not a lot. I think, a few years ago, we shifted or age groups, and we got rid of our U19 team. So that year, we had a lot of drop off, because we just didn't have a team to house that age group that was already here in terms of de-selections, you know, high numbers. But generally year to year, when you come in at U13 you will not be deselected from the U13. So you always get U13 and U14 seasons kind of in your pocket when you come in, because it's such a huge adjustment. So we never plan to deselect anybody from the U13 after that season, because you need more time to really see how the players progressing. And then beyond that, you know, you'll get a handful of guys each year, from the U15, U17 age groups that are deselected based on performance. And again, that goes back to you know, in the end, we are of a football academy. So we can't be can't keep everybody. And that's not what we're here for we're here, if you if you look like you can keep progressing towards being part of the first team. And like pushing yourself and your teammates that direction, then that's why you're here. So, you know, usually with de-selection in the past, both myself and Felix, my co-worker, we will meet with players who are deselected and kind of as much as they're willing will walk with them through that process. Because it's a huge transition, it's a big transition into the academy. It's an equally big transition out of the academy. So we try to support players on both sides of that. But in the end, all the work that I do is you can opt into it. You don't have to meet with me ever. So a lot of times as we see players exiting the club, they'll meet with me like once, and then they feel like, you know, I'm not here anymore anyway. So I'm just going to go on my own.
[00:37:56] Mike: Yeah. Do you see, and this is more out of curiosity than any sort of relevance? How much do you see any sort of elective opting out whether a player says like, this is for me, I'm going to another club, do you see that?
[00:38:09] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, we've seen that before. I've had conversations with players over the year who are considering either leaving the Academy because of this not really what they want, they it's not what they thought it would be in terms of the elite performance environment, it's more than they expected. They don't have the, you know, everything soccer all the time. And I think a lot of times for the little guys coming into the academy, it's all kind of roses when they look at, I'm going to be a pro soccer player, and I'm gonna go for the Academy, and they don't realize that the difficulties that exists along that pathway, and then I've had also conversations with players who they just kind of burn out. And they say, you know, it's not the academy or the, the level, I just am done with soccer, I am just not interested anymore. And I want to do other things. And so I've had both of those conversations with players over the years.
[00:39:08] Mike: Well, that really resonates with me as someone who has two children in that age range. 13, 14 is, I have a son who's 13 going on 14 has a daughter who's 11 going on 12, both soccer players and both relatively skilled, talented, whatever. But I also know that they want to do other things, right. So there's no we've never had been put in a conference position to have a conversation of like, Hey, you're gonna go play for Academy. There's never been any interest anyone. No one's ever approached us. But they all they want to do different things. They want to have their friends, they want to play different sports. They're not motivated to go and do one thing all the time. And so motivation is something that comes up I can totally see there being a situation where somebody that age wouldn't have the motivation to continue through because they're so consuming. So I guess there's a bunch of questions I have actually. But like coming in, like, do you feel like a lot of the new the young kids who come in, are they making that choice? Like to come in and say, I really want to do this? Or do you feel like they're putting being put into that position? Because of their skill level even though maybe there's some reservation about like, do I really want to do this?
[00:40:26] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, I would say we get both, you know, I can think of some very specific individuals who have, we've invited them to the academy, and the player has said, Yes, this is what I'm doing. Even when the parents had hesitation, and they say, Oh, really, like, you know, here's all the things you need to consider, and what about this and that, and the player says, No, this is what I want. I'm doing this even when they're 12. So we've had players like that. And then we've also had instances where it's really the parents saying, Okay, this is this is being offered to us, and we're going to take it, and the player says, okay, like, you know, mom and dad make those decisions. And I like soccer. So this is what we're going to do. Yeah. So you know, and those are kind of like two ends of the spectrum. And there's everything in between. But we try really hard, especially as they're entering the academy and then touching on it as they go along from year to year, making sure that they realize the depth and breadth of sure expectation and load and the sort of thing that is involved in being in the academy. And we also try to temper that with our own scheduling. The programs that we run, making sure that you know, if we can get the player home earlier, we are going to do that by all means necessary. So that they aren't, you know, staying up till wild hours trying to get their homework done, because they got home late from soccer, try and get everybody back home with their families, like as early as possible as often as possible, because we know, you know, there's a physical load as you're progressing through your time here. But there's also the kind of the social, and the schedule load that we try to minimize as much as possible, realizing that can really tire a player out.
[00:42:31] Mike: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, just the subject of motivation is sort of near and dear to my heart. And I think what I'm starting to realize now that I work more than working more and more with athletes and at a young age group, you know, I think a lot of times, it's, you know, do they really want to put in the work required to get to a certain level, because I think sometimes there's this belief a lot of times from the kid like, Oh, I'm going to go and do this, I'm going to go play Division-One sport somewhere. And then you realize that there's disconnect between the goal and what they're actually doing on a day to day basis to get there. You know, some of them are sort of, I would say, diluted, but I think they don't really understand just the same. There's some kids who go, you know, what, like, I don't want this, and it's okay, because I want to just be a normal kid, and that's okay. But then you get the special kid, the special kid who says, like, I don't care, I'm going to do whatever it takes and I'm gonna go do that. And I feel like those are the ones that, you know, obviously can't predict the future. But I would guess that the ones who come in and say, like I want to do this are the ones that are most likely to succeed, because they're making that choice and they feel autonomous in that.
[00:43:50] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, and I can think of players that I've worked with over the last few years who, you know, our conversations have been, I'm gonna get a contract with this club that is what I'm doing. And even with that mindset, and the readiness to do that, you still run into conversations about kind of the reality checking of, okay, that means you're gonna have to give up this, or that means you're gonna have to apply yourself to this more, or develop this skill set or learn how to do X, Y, Z, off the field, because I, you know, the coaches are doing all the on field development stuff, and I'm working with the players who have that mindset of, I'm gonna go pro, I'm here, I'm in it, this is what I want, and they enjoy doing that. You still run into okay, what is keeping you from achieving that right now in terms of your mindset or your time spend or this sort of thing? And then yeah, you know, sometimes I'll be in conversation with the player and the results that we get to is, I don't want to go pro. You know, and like, what we're doing here is developing professional players and they really There's actually that's not what I want. And so sometimes that's to the degree of, you know, that's not what I want, and I need to go. And sometimes that's just, you know, that's not what I want, but I have the skill level to be here and I want to play at the highest level that I can. So I'm going to stay here, but I know I'm gonna go to college instead of trying to get a pro contract, like I want to go to college, I don't really want to go pro doesn't look attractive to me and now I'm getting closer to that age. And so, you know, you get players who know, they're not going that direction, but still have the level to be here and we work with them on. Okay, what doors does football open up for you outside of being a professional player?
[00:45:45] Mike: Yeah, and so you know, to boil that down to a phrase, it's you know for me, it's decision making understanding that there are consequences to everything that you do it, and, you know, there's no necessarily good or bad, it's doing what's best for you. And that means, I'm not willing to give up another hour of my time to get better at this, that's okay. It's okay, there's a consequence to it, meaning, like, if you don't do it, then the likelihood that you're going to get to where you want to go turns down.
[00:46:14] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, yeah. And so those conversations, you know, helping players realize that dynamic is a lot of, I feel like I spend a lot of time on that conversation. Because these guys are young, and they don't have all of the ability to kind of forecast all of the things attached to their decisions. So and you know, that like, their brain is even still developing in terms of decision making logic, risk assessment, that sort of thing. And so, helping them really process through that. And, and doing that in a way that's, you know, it's safe, and it's okay, if you realize something that you think coach might not like, or your parents might not expect of you, or, like, I'm here with you to help you figure out all of this. And whatever decisions that the player comes to based off of, that's his decision, but at least now we've explored it and we know, it's informed and well thought through.
[00:47:22] Mike: Yeah. So, you know, it's gotten me thinking I have a couple of athletes that I work with that are in college. And to characterize the situation is, I think the transition from high school to college was very challenging. Because one, from a performance perspective, and at the high school level, highly successful. College, everybody is just as good, if not better. Then there becomes the, you know, I'm not getting the time, I'm not getting the opportunity to compete, because there's other people better than me, and the question of, why am I spending all this time doing this? And I'm not participating at the level I want to and I'm not performing at the level, I want to like, why? Can you talk about some of those challenges you see, as players are rising up through the ranks in terms of the increase in demands? Perhaps maybe there's increases in travel expectations? But also, you know, like, maybe they're not as competitive or not as good relative to the people around them? Like, how do they deal with that? Can you talk about seeing those transitions up through the system?
[00:48:33] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, I think the biggest jump, I guess, or the first jump in levels of competition that we have is usually when you move from the U14 to the U15 group, because you're just in a more competitive environment, you have different types of tournaments and games and this sort of thing. So the level really raises when you go to U15. Which is also kind of when a lot of the guys are starting to hit puberty and starting high school. And so it's like this amalgam of factors and, they kind of can get thrown by that sometimes. So we try to pay a lot of attention to that when they're hitting that age with the U15 group. And then, you know, when you're talking about that transition from high school to college, it made me think of, you know, here, most of the guys go through the academy and they go to college and football scholarships. So, but they continue their development at a college or university. The guys who get contracts with a club, that's where I see kind of the equivalent of what you were describing of you were doing great. You are at the top, like height of performance. And that's what got you the contract offer. And now you're with the first team and, oh my goodness, is totally different. So overwhelmed now, not just with college kids, now you are with adult professional footballers. And in on the field, in the locker room, on the bus, on the plane like these, you're all of a sudden in a totally adult environment. And so helping players as much as possible. Understand that before they dive into it, and so that they're at least not surprised when they start feeling like oh, wait, like, I don't recognize this, this doesn't look or feel like it did last year, when I was getting all the minutes I wanted, you know, I was performing how I wanted coach loved me, right, I was getting a lot of attention. And now you're back at the bottom, you've got to earn your way. Exactly. So that dynamic absolutely exists here. And again, some players, they, they kind of like work through that in really healthy and helpful ways. And other players really struggle with it. And a lot of it has to do with you know, different personnel and you dynamics and timing and all of these factors. But those players that do transition from the Academy to the first team, I've worked with all of them while they've been in the academy. So I'll always offer to them, Hey, this is a big transition. Here's what I usually see with guys as they make this transition just so you know. But I'm here, if you want to process through anything, if you just need to vent if you're confused, if you're frustrated, if you need resources, or we need to work on skill building, like all these things that we've been doing over these past years in the academy, we need to keep doing them. Because you're still developing, you're gonna go in at the bottom, and you need to develop to get on the field. So just framing that as they make that transition. And then again, some of them opt into it. And we're working week in week out on things and others say, you know what, I've got a contract and that's what I wanted. And I'll see you around, you know, and again, either one of those is fine, it's their own choice how they want to handle it. But I'm always here, and working with the guys who do want to keep, you know, putting in the time and the effort to develop themselves in that way.
[00:52:37] Mike: Right. And as I've heard from colleagues and other sports that are in similar roles to yours is, you know, you're not going to get everybody to sign on to doing the work. There's, you know, a third of the guys or girls who are going to be like, I don't need this, right, there are going to be a third who are like completely on board and be like, Hey, give me more like I want to learn and I need all the help I can get. And then there's gonna be a third on the fence. And like, you know, as, as professionals, I think you know, what you learn, I'm learning like, hey, everybody operates to the beat of their own drummer. And if they don't want to do it, that's okay. If they change their mind, that's okay. Just you're there for them and understanding that not everybody has an appetite for it, or has a need for it. Some athletes can deal with adversity, and you know, the challenges that come with it on their own and manage it quite well. Some can’t though, and having somebody to help them work through that is really important?
[00:53:33] Rachael Jankowsky: Right. And some have great support systems, right with their friends at home or significant others and then others definitely don't, and maybe not even, maybe might be not just a lack of a positive support system, but maybe even negative influences at home, and maybe socially that they have to deal with soy. Also, you know, again, looking at it from a global perspective of there's a player, but there's all of these different environmental pieces and social pieces that impact the player. And the field is only really a small part of what each athlete is dealing with, from day to day. And so if something's off in one of those off field dynamics, or they need extra support there, then like you said earlier, they need somewhere to come kind of like put the bags down before they step on the field so that they can perform.
[00:54:27] Mike: Right, that's a good metaphor. It's interesting, because I think you and I would agree that what you just said was, you know, being on the field is such a small piece of the whole. But what I find with young athletes is that it's completely inverted. The vast majority of their identity is turned on, is based on what's going on the field, all these other pieces of their identity which are important and seemingly more important in some ways. They don't perceive it that way. I'm a son, I'm a father, I'm a student, I mean, a brother. All those things are secondary through the athletic performance. And so that a lot of times is the real challenge is trying to get them to sort of re-shift their perspective on, like, what is this all really mean you know, because if all those eggs are in one basket, that creates a lot of times the negative, terrible. The stress, the anxiety, the depression, the things that come with it, this would be emotional responses, because of the importance of the sport. So I mean, is that typical or is that too common in your work in terms of what you see, especially at that level?
[00:55:41] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, absolutely. So I can think of instances where I've, so we try and do a lot of identity development over the years with players in terms of helping them realize kind of the breadth of who they are not just a footballer and, you know, but there's limits to that. We don't have all the time, we would love to have to do those exercises with players. So you know, when, when I'm working with individuals who are dealing with the identity piece of I'm an athlete, I'm a footballer, and then especially like, so what does it mean when it's not going well, or when it's going away or when I'm injured and we're on pause, or this sort of thing or what does it mean, when I don't want football anymore? When something shifts like that, it's because the identity is so wrapped up in it, it's a big deal. And so that I've found is really slow work to go through on an individual level, it takes time to really talk through that and process it. And there's a few exercises that I kind of really lean on to help players frame who they are and what they want, and this sort of thing that I found that work pretty well and consistently over the years. But you know, one of the other things that I find interesting is, at least with the younger guys, how much of the parents identity is also wrapped up in their son being part of the academy?
[00:57:35] Mike: Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:57:37] Rachael Jankowsky: It's really and sometimes that can create a really unhealthy pressure on the player when they are dealing with something. And so that's, you know, we try and work on that at the beginning of each year with the new guys dealing with the parent’s identity piece. You know, I am the parent of an elite youth football player. And how do parents help their son on their development pathway through the parent son relationship in a way that is healthy and supportive and not detrimental. And we use a book that we've gone through with parents over the last few years, you're called on frame, it's kind of a reflective set of exercises that were was put together by Patrick Eonni. He is a former pro footballer he played for the club. And he came up with this book to help parents, parent their kids, well through the youth soccer environment, and parents every year. Love going through that we have each U13 group of parents do that as a group workshop each year. Because that's such a crucial dynamic for the players in their development where, you know, the Academy and the parents have to be on the same page in terms of what is their son need? So if we're not together on that, it can be really confusing for the player.
[00:59:13] Mike: Yeah. I mean, I would imagine it's bank defined at that level, but I have to say, you know, it's universal, you know, whether your kid plays in a Development Academy for a professional football club, or whether they play on a travel team, you know, you know, and they're sort of at the high end of that spectrum. And in a given area. Parents sort of wear that identity and they have a really hard time separating themselves from the experience of the athlete. And those things when they get when they get intertwined, can get really messy, and I think it's something I see a lot of, and I do think that there's a lot of room for education at the parent level about that so that we can build awareness whether it's in the academy like yours or somewhere else to say, hey, their journey, you're supporting it, but You're not You're not taking a starring role you're a support you're right you're a supporting actor you're not you're not the lead, and if you become the lead it's going to be a real big problem maybe not today but eventually because you know you're taking away from their experience. So it's great that you're doing that. And I know you mentioned the book when we met. And I just, you know, I think that's something that every parent should sort of be aware of, and learn from and think about.
[01:00:26] Rachael Jankowsky: So if you're the parent of an elite athlete, and you're listening to this pick up on frame even and go through, it's so helpful. And I think the players also like it, I've gotten feedback from the players, because there's a few exercises in there where parents are prompted to engage with their sons or daughters around certain questions, and, and having the parent practice active listening, and open ended questions, and the sort of thing that, you know, you and I have learned from our backgrounds as mental health practitioners, but the parents find that challenging. And the players love it, because usually they don't have parents coming in just asking them for their opinion with nothing behind it. So we've really kind of, I think, made steps forward in viewing the parent as a potential support for players. Whereas I think a lot of times I hear not here at the academy, but in other soccer circles, so you know, parents being framed as like, a difficulty, their development pathway, and we like to train view parents as a resource and really partner with them.
[01:01:55] Mike: Yeah, you just said something that sort of really resonated with me and it kind of slipping my mind there. But yeah, it happens all the time in my work. And, you know, I think that anything we could do to sort of facilitate the development of the athletes Oh, here it is, is what I forgot. So I've had a lot of parents come to me that I'd be parents of kids that I work with, and they say like, what can I do differently? And that's exactly the answer. I'll give them. I won't even say ask open ended questions although that would be ideal. I would just say, ask more questions rather than going and telling them, like what you think or giving them advice about something that they know more about than you, like, ask them, what's going on?
[01:02:40] Rachael Jankowsky: And not guided or weighted questions of, don't you think or wouldn't it be better? Just straight questions, but nothing behind it.
[01:02:49] Mike: Sure, having some level of curiosity, which lets the athlete believe that you really genuinely care about what they're thinking and feeling and what their opinion is and what they're going through versus like, Hey, this is about me. When you ask a conditional question, that I'm worried about how you're going to answer because it affects me. A lot of parents they do they get over invested in the athlete's performance, and they want a certain answer back. And listen, we were all most of us were coached and parented that way on command and control. We're on the parent to tell you what to do. You go do it, if you don't do it, there's something wrong and you fix it. And that's something gets passed on generationally and it's really hard. I think, for a lot of kids, especially, you know, like, even like, I start to work with athletes, and I start to ask a lot of questions. They get confused sometimes. They get confused like, I know, it's like weird that adults like asking them what they think. You know, what do you feel like? What do you think you need to do to get better? I don't know. Like, you know, I don't know.
[01:03:56] Rachael Jankowsky: Once that ask that before.
[01:03:57] Mike: No one's ever asked me that before. And they like really like their back on their heels. Because it doesn't make sense. They're so used to people telling them what you need to do. And they just go do it, which is fine to a point, but then you can't think on your own. You have to think on their own. So it's just a fascinating world. I mean, it's really encouraging to know that, you know, at that level where you're at, like, it could very easily be very, very demanding. And I mean, I'm sure it is, but I mean by that is like it's very holistic, it's very open minded, developmentally, you're sort of thinking about the player first, how do we all work together in service to the player versus like, this is a business like you either need to figure it out or you don't and if you don't, you're out which is typically what we think about when we think about professional sports. So I guess as we wrap up, the last question I'll ask you is and I'll sort of frame it as from the perspective of a young athlete. So if someone said to you, a young athletes that, hey, I was injured assisted in coming in and playing for developmental for an academy, like Chicago Firehouse, like, what advice, what's the one piece of advice you'd give that athlete in terms of preparing for that?
[01:05:15] Rachael Jankowsky: I would say that they, I would encourage them to own their own development. That's something that we talk a lot about here and it's hard for kids to do it. But once they get the hang of it, we see a, you know, leaps and bounds of progression. And by that, I mean, if you are not sure what you're supposed to be doing to take the next step, go ask coach, If you want to get faster, go tell your coach, or if you have a strength and conditioning coach or a trainer or something, say, I want to get faster, what do I do? You've got resources around you who can help you move forward, but usually, they're working with a lot of individuals. You're not the only kid on the team. So if you know you want more, go ask for it, advocate for yourself. And, one, you'll get more to work on to get to the next level and to you'll get the attention of your coaches, noticing, hey, this kid wants more they have the drive, you know, and that goes a long way as well in terms of showing attitude and perspective and kind of the grits to move forward. So I'd say own it, and get what you want from the resources that are around you.
[01:06:47] Mike: I think that's a perfect, perfect note to end on. I couldn't agree with that more. So with that, Rachael, I want to thank you for giving the time to come on and have a conversation with me. Really enjoyable and interesting, and I'm looking forward to putting it out there for others to listen to. So thank you again.
[01:07:06] Rachael Jankowsky: Yeah, thanks for having me. Enjoyed it.
[01:07:08] Mike: All right, take care.
[01:07:10] Rachael Jankowsky: Okay, you too.
[01:07:12] Mike: Bye, bye.