How is Dr. Daniel Zimet serving athletes in transition?
Transitions, in sport as in life, can be very difficult, especially if you are not prepared for them. Some of the most challenging times in my life have been during major transitions. College. Marriage. Parenthood. Divorce. Unfortunately, I was short on the resources to manage these changes and it took a toll on my life.
Perhaps, one of the most difficult transitions of all is when an elite athlete must exit their sport. Athletes are some of the most resilient people walking the earth, but yet are still human. After years and years of investment into the single most important thing in an athlete’s life, sport is gone in a blink of an eye and it is nearly impossible to replicate that experience. The mental health impacts can be negative and sometimes tragic.
My guest on this episode, Dr. Daniel Zimet, is a licensed psychologist and Certified Mental Performance Consultant®. Dan and colleagues in our field of sport psychology are conducting the Athlete Transition Study to better understand the experiences of retiring athletes on a large scale.
In Episode 46, Dan discusses the inspiration for conducting the Athlete Transition Study and why its implications are so important to how we support retiring athletes. Further, Dan and I discuss the unique challenges of athletic identity and how sport psychology professionals help athletes keep things in perspective.
So, what was your biggest takeaway from my conversation with Dr. Daniel Zimet?
For me, it’s that we must truly understand the elite athlete’s transition experiences in order to serve them properly. Athletes lose a critical part of their identity when they retire and the potential long-term mental health consequences are significant. Investing in the Athlete Transition Study is a small price to pay for a potentially huge payoff.
My suggestion to elite athletes and their loved ones is share your story. You are not alone. All athletes, elite and non-elite alike, can struggle after they leave sport. Without the proper support, the transition out of sport can be extremely difficult. Share your story with a friend or trusted professional.
I want to thank Dan for his kind generosity and the wisdom he shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can learn more about the Athlete Transition Study on their website at https://athletetransitionstudy.com as well as on Instagram and Twitter @athletetransitionstudy.
To learn HOW mental performance coaching can help your mind work FOR you rather than AGAINST you, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back soon for Episode 47!
00:00.00
mvhuber
Hey Dan how are you.
00:01.50
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Hi good morning or afternoon what time afternoon good to hear from you.
00:06.83
mvhuber
Ah, you know it's funny. You say that I used to listen to a podcast where the host would say we don't say good morning or good afternoon because the guest doesn't know what time it is so we say good day. So good day to you? Ah so.
00:17.10
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, and well.
00:23.38
mvhuber
Um I guess think to get things started Dan um, could you just tell me a little bit about the inspiration for the athlete transition study.
00:31.74
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, so the um, the initial meeting happened kind of serendipitously I had a young gentleman who had played football for Syracuse and he was interested in maybe going into a career in sports psychology.
00:37.18
mvhuber
Um, landing.
00:46.70
mvhuber
The.
00:48.15
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And the course of talking to him about his experience and why he was thinking about it. We discussed a subject that has come up many times in my clinical practice and my work with athletes which is how hard it is to make the transition away from competing at Elite Sports and how little.
01:05.72
mvhuber
Um.
01:07.60
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Is known and how little supports are in place for those athletes and what was supposed to be an hour long meeting turned into two and a half hours and I talked to a few of my colleagues who have had very similar conversations with their clientele and we started looking into the research and research.
01:22.88
mvhuber
Um.
01:26.39
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Realize just a lot more needs to be done both in terms of understanding athletes and their experiences but even more so than that supporting them in getting the funding the programming and the general knowledge base about what kind of help they need and what they go through.
01:43.60
mvhuber
So when did that first conversation take place.
01:48.37
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Oh good I mean it has to have been maybe four or five years ago now it led to a two year three year process of ah the 5 of us getting together understanding what is available now in the current research literature.
01:59.58
mvhuber
Are.
02:05.65
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Figuring out what's needed to try to move this area forward and then formulating the study itself the questionnaires that we developed try to best move both research understanding and also our general culture as a whole. Um, in our awareness of what these athletes go through and what they need and we've had the survey available for about a year now we've had around 600 athletes complete it. We're wanting to have many many more than that to understand as much as we can.
02:45.30
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But we're in this for the long haul So we'll just see how that goes.
02:49.23
mvhuber
Um, so in terms of I don't know responses or response rates or just a general sort of um willingness to participate. Do you think it's you know, general just um, an an awareness issue meaning like. If somebody knows about it like I took the the survey right? I'm not an elite athlete but there's a component of the survey that caters to people like me is it just because you need more awareness or do you find that there are people out there that are not willing to participate.
03:07.88
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Thank you so much.
03:20.21
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
I don't know how many people are not willing to participate I think that everyone is busy. We have a finite amount of time we ask for about 23 minutes which is the average it takes to fill out the athlete survey the one you took.
03:25.81
mvhuber
Um.
03:28.45
mvhuber
Is.
03:38.90
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Which allows us to compare elite athletes health to people who never competed at the elite level only takes about ten or eleven minutes but that's still not insubstantial. Um I've yet to run into someone who has been against taking the survey. I think that awareness is a big part of it and also the knowledge that there'll be a benefit to them committing their time I think that people can get used to volunteering their knowledge and wisdom by taking a survey and then feeling like they're just pouring a bucket of water down a well.
04:06.52
mvhuber
Um.
04:15.71
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
They really need to see results and I think the more awareness that we generate both in terms of the study. But also what we're doing with those results and how it can actually in a tangible way help future athletes.
04:15.83
mvhuber
Um.
04:33.16
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
I Think that that's probably the key.
04:35.91
mvhuber
Yeah, well, what's interesting about the non-elite survey that I took um and it was very simple. Um, but I think for me the most interesting part was about traumatic brain injury as a former high school football player I think I was asked a question about. How many times have I had a concussion diagnosed or not and I would say that it was probably 2 um, but it's just interesting that I don't really like think about that so in taking the survey I think about awareness but not necessarily in the same context I think about the awareness for myself like when I answered those question I was like.
04:58.69
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah.
05:12.13
mvhuber
Oh right I did have I think I did have 2 concussions and like what were the impacts on me and I think there's something to be said for spending that time taking a survey just for your own benefit to really think about like where you've come from and how that can it be affecting.
05:28.66
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, yeah, I Really I appreciate that insight and observation because the nature of the questions themselves that the survey asks I think really speaks to the experience of athletes that they go through both.
05:29.30
mvhuber
Where you're at today.
05:34.00
mvhuber
Are.
05:47.61
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
While they're competing in that transition out of sport trying to cope with the changes. What it's like turning to people for support and access to resource I think it is a self-reflective journey and there may be some athletes that can be really challenging. To have to revisit what might have been a very painful time in their life. Maybe the most painful time in their life. But on the other hand I think that that kind of self-reflection is both beneficial to a person in terms of their self-awareness.
06:11.64
mvhuber
Um.
06:23.41
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But it may also let them know how important it is to try to help future athletes to have a better experience than they did in general I Found athletes are hardworking compassionate. Smart people and they're really a remarkable group and they're willing to put themselves out there if they feel it's for ah the better good of the team and their team is athletes whether they're past current or future.
06:43.48
mvhuber
Um.
06:51.68
mvhuber
Yeah.
06:57.46
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And I think they're willing to make the commitment of um, thinking about some of these things if they feel it will come to a good end the health piece that you suggested is really a very important question for me and part of what makes this survey Unique. We'll be able to look at whether people who never played football people who played high school only high school and college high school college professional and for how long and what type of experience they had for their health.
07:33.30
mvhuber
Um.
07:34.27
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And really look at long-term outcomes of whether there are concerns for even high school athletes in terms of their injury rates chronic pain sleep disturbance trauma are there differences that we'll notice along that full spectrum. Because something that's understood, but maybe not generally known the athletes who are most at risk of dying on the field are high school athletes. They are the most frequent fatal injury from head trauma victims. And it's because they're in development still they might be lighter but the people who play in the Nfl one. They've had a lot more time training. So they really do know in better ways. How to protect them all. Yeah.
08:11.40
mvhuber
No.
08:22.55
mvhuber
Right? It's a skill issue right? Yeah partially. Um.
08:25.78
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But they're also they also outweigh high schoolers by early double and hit a lot harder but their their brain brain stem and bodies have more more developed So they're better able to cope. Um.
08:35.15
mvhuber
And.
08:40.53
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
So we want to know about those high schoolers. Also what they what they're going through.
08:46.11
mvhuber
Yeah, it's it seems like the brain injury piece of its is pretty significant. Um, when I when I looked at your website I see it feels to me like that's.. It seems like it was a big driver of that conversation from the beginning in terms of understanding like what that looks like is that a fair way to put it.
09:05.85
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
well well um cognitive issues gained an enormous amount of attention on the cte stories breaking in the 2000
09:11.56
mvhuber
In.
09:21.52
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But sort of like the will Smith movie. Um, and um, oh my goodness that the the fellow is embarrassing who ended up committing suicide in jail who was accused of murder. Um I can't believe his name is slipping my mind. It's it's.
09:22.55
mvhuber
Are.
09:38.55
mvhuber
Um, Aaron Hernandez yeah
09:41.12
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Aaron ah, just a tragic story in so many you know from the people who are murdered to his situ. It's just a very tragic situation. But I think a lot of people look at and feel like they can directly point to head trauma as the catalyst for his behavior.
09:48.49
mvhuber
Yeah.
10:00.67
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, and there's been a growing body of research on that end. But there's a lot of nuance to it. What's the connection to things like depression and Anxiety. Um. We want to look into much we want we are looking into such a wide array of Health factors. Ah Cognitive Behavioral Social Addiction. We're looking at their physical wellbeing their mental health response.
10:33.78
mvhuber
Um.
10:34.74
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
We're looking at really the whole person. Ah for their long-term wellness outcomes and trying to see if some of these issues like concussions when they were playing sports amongst many other things may be contributing factors to outcomes that are.
10:37.32
mvhuber
Are.
10:53.00
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
5 10 15 or 30 years later.
10:54.79
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah I mean I I think obviously knowing those things helps inform the process of change right? You have to understand it before you can really address it in the proper way I would think the other piece of this or one of the other big pieces of it. Is identity right? in terms of you know, even if somebody comes out of sport even a football player and their health is pristine. There didn't have any concussions which is probably a hard thing to do nowadays not to get away without a concussion but they're in pretty good health and they come out the other side and they retire and they move on. But there's still this identity piece which is what I see a lot more of in my practice you know, even at the younger ages where sport is such a big part of a young person's identity that if it's not going the way they want it to or ultimately they're forced out of it because of performance or. Injury or whatever reason coping with that can be really really Hard. So Can you talk about sort of the identity component of the transition process in the study.
11:59.24
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, you very accurately bring up 3 of what I consider the main drivers of a very difficult transition out of sport. Although they're not the only drivers.
12:10.79
mvhuber
Um, right.
12:14.46
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, that's having what we refer to as identity foreclosure where it's singularly focused on their sport and their um their ah their thought of self as an athlete only and the second thing you brought up is. Ah, disappointment in their career ah results feeling like they did not accomplish what they really hoped for as an athlete and then the third thing you brought up is feeling like they had no control over how their end of career came about. Either injury or deselection or bad Luck. You know something ah shuts down their ability to move their career forward and they lose the ability to choose. Um.
13:03.62
mvhuber
In.
13:05.44
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
All of those are immensely important and you could make the argument that some of it starts with identity and but the the example I like to use for people who never really competed in sport is imagine that you always wanted to be. A I don't know pharmacist all through high school you study so that you can go to the best college when you're a college you completely commit yourself to being able to get the best possible grades you get into pharmacy school. If. There is in fact, such a thing. Um and then you finally arrive and six months into working as a pharmacist. You know the little bell rings someone walks in and says I'm sorry but you can't do this anymore. Ah, not just here. But anywhere ever again. And you're just going to have to do something else and I think that illustrates what that moment might be like um, you don't just get to choose when you retire which for many of us in our careers can be in our sixty s if we so choose. Um, instead you're in your 20 s having really committed everything to this 1 pursuit. It's a profound shock and the amount of time that athletes put into their craft far exceeds the work that I put into getting my ph d I'm embarrassed to say.
14:43.30
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, so they're really hardworking and committed and so what happens then is why so many people struggle with that transition because you can understand why the business of sport. And also the nature of the way that sport operates itself really pressures young people to make it their entire identity takes a strong person to at the same time value their education or value. Their. Other types of interests or pursuits because where's that time really coming from that might be true in the United States where we have the educational pathway for dual career where collegiate athletes also get an education but it's even worse in. Um, europe for instance where a lot of their athlete development occurs in clubs or programs that are outside of the educational environment and many athletes feel like they're dissuaded from pursuing education and the regional interests.
15:54.25
mvhuber
Um.
15:55.88
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
While they're at those academies and for them. It's even worse because then they're left without training or credential and that's to me the the fallacy or fault of the business of sport which is really exclusively geared towards. Making money and you can understand it. But the word business is in there.
16:15.74
mvhuber
Um, yeah, yeah, well I think and and I think you that point you know cascades now all the way down to the youth level right? And so what I.
16:28.29
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
You.
16:32.34
mvhuber
See in my work is most of my work is with young people between 12 and 22 call it and 12 is probably on the low end but there's a lot of what I would deem to be perfectionism at some on some spectrum of there's so much time and energy now put into sport even at. That youth level that it's such a big part of their lives and there's so much money spent which the kid might not know how much money's being spent exactly but they know mom and dad are spending a lot of money and they know that mom and dad are spending a lot of time and they know that there's a lot of exposure and eyeballs on them to perform. And now all of a sudden you've created a mini professional athlete when they're really just kids who are supposed to be going to school having a good time and playing sport for enjoyment you know and and that's not to say there aren't young people who are on an elite track that you know are going to be practicing and investing more than others. That's always been the case but now it's like almost everybody is training like an elite athlete and they're not and so what does that do what does it do to the the person right? What does it do to the person who you know may be only thinking that sport is the 1 path and you know education or any other you know.
17:32.11
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, yeah.
17:48.51
mvhuber
Livelihood or any other pursuit is not worth it. You know and I think that that's a really troubling thing for me because I see a lot of it firsthand.
17:57.54
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, the the professionalism of Youth Sport I think is very problematic for a lot of reasons you see it in arenas out other than sport as well. The one that I'll see it in is music for instance. Um.
18:13.79
mvhuber
Um.
18:15.25
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
So it's not just in sport. But that's been a more recent phenomenon and I think there's very good argument to suggest that if what you're trying to do is build a elite level athlete when they're in their twenty s you're actually working counter to your purpose. Because the number of kids who burn out or have overuse injuries is is quite substantial and I mean how long does a person really need to swim in in order to be ready to. For the olympic trials when they're in their twenty s I don't know the answer to that question but I can't imagine it starts when you're 9 years old um and a lot of the coaches are asking for between twenty and thirty hours where you can't miss practices or there are consequences many of these meets a occur on weekends. It's it's an it's an absorbing family and child commitment and even if it's driven by the child which to me is essential if you're going to do something like that the kid.
19:26.27
mvhuber
Couldn't agree more.
19:27.20
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Has to be the motivational driver but even in those circumstances I feel what you lose is what you referenced previously.. It's really building this robust identity that is aware of multiple sports other types of Recreational. Um. Hobbies things like music and art and travel and reading you know, just being able to diversify your exposure so that as an adult you have not just this narrow deep channel of.
19:58.35
mvhuber
Um.
20:06.53
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Profound knowledge and capability but kind of like ah ah, a wide stream of knowledge and interests so that when it comes to your identity as an adult finding out where to commit your time you're able to do that from a place of Knowledge. You know you've played an Instrument. You've done crafting you've worked at a restaurant or in fast food. You've you've done enough things where you can make a wise choice.
20:34.36
mvhuber
Um, right? Yeah, you lived your life right? you know and it's not in a vacuum and it's not with blinders on. Yes yeah I mean I think I you know I always.
20:41.93
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Now you've tried a lot of hats on tried a lot of hats on.
20:49.81
mvhuber
Not that I always bring it back to my own personal situation. But I always try to sort of put it into perspective I mean I have young children. They're teenagers or preteen and with their involvement in Sport. It's very expensive. It's time consuming and you also have the ah the emotional element of seeing potential. And a child right? Whether it's my son or my daughter and fighting the urge to push them to do more because of it's what I think that they should be doing versus saying hey what I try to say to my kids particularly my son is say you can do whatever you want I'm not going to. Try to persuade you either way but just know that there's a consequence to it right? If you don't put in more time or energy then it's probably going to be reflected in the performance and the results and I think but a lot of times that's not the approach. It's like hey you need to do this or else and then there's a pressure.
21:32.78
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Congratulations.
21:47.77
mvhuber
And an expectation on a child that hey you need to keep going with this because you can get to here right? and that would be great. You know any parent wants to see their child succeed but at the same time very few athletes succeed and then we're pushing them all at the same rate. Not really being aware of the fact that.
21:51.90
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
You.
22:07.22
mvhuber
Hey like there's probably in some cases more harm than good being done in this process. No.
22:10.99
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah I mean I have a couple of thoughts from what you said you know some of it is how do people frame the intention of why their kids are in sport is it to create little Olympians or is it them to. Enjoy what I think personally is I mean in my mind Sport is is probably 1 of the single best environments for child rearing when it's done appropriately because every valuable lesson. In maturation and building a good citizen and ah an independent capable person who is compassionate and a contributor and community minded can come from sport when it's done Well Um, so you know and and. It's important to understand that I Love sport at its essence but you have to stop and think are is that my motivation am I do I see sport as a venue for the well-being growth development of my child or am I trying to create a little olympian.
23:15.76
mvhuber
Are.
23:23.60
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, and what is the coach trying to do what is what is the value system that is being displayed in how you are going about coaching my child and those are important questions to ask yourself as a parent but also to ask the coach who is. Ah, working with your kid because there's absolutely nothing wrong with recreational participation. In fact, I would say that there's an immense amount right about recreational participation. It's kind of like Sandlot play.
24:00.81
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Something to also be said for trying to find your best possible performance and working to see what you can achieve at your highest potential. That's also great, but it's also not for everyone everything or every situation.
24:13.97
mvhuber
On Yeah I think you know that what? what I couldn't help but thinking about is sort of the element of emotion right? because the way you described it I think was quite eloquent and I think it was very objective right? And so I think what happens is. When emotion is injected into those situations and I think about it from the parent child dynamic. Even the most knowledgeable and objective parent still becomes emotional I could speak from personal Experience. They still get emotional about the child's. Participation in sport and their performance right? So sometimes that clouds the Judgment. Um and the same for coaches right? Coaches might have their child's best interest in heart. But then you get into the heat of competition or you're trying to win games so you can get a better job right? This these. This is my plug for I Guess mental skills training which is to say every parent probably needs some dose of awareness about how people are motivated children are motivated um and to understand that the means of communication is critical in terms of how when where etc. And for the child for them to not only understand and have coping mechanisms and have someone to talk to who's outside that process objectively and not emotional um like you or I but also teaching them about empathy right? teaching them about the fact that life is such that you're going to be put into situations that are uncomfortable.
25:48.50
mvhuber
That sometimes you have no control over and the people you're dealing with while you may not like it have motivations there of their own and if you can put yourself into that person's shoes as a young person the sooner you can do that the better you're better off, you're going to be to move forward into your life whether it's sport or any other. Area to know like hey I don't like what this person's doing but I kind of get why it's happening and so what? what are my choices? Do I let them keep doing it or do I stand up and advocate for myself, right? This sort of process of Advoca self-advocacy as a young athlete rather than. Standing aside and letting someone dictate for you because even though you're a young person doesn't mean you don't You're not entitled to your own opinion or your own you know, defense of yourself in that process and I think a lot of people miss that and it's not their fault. It's just a lack of awareness and.
26:33.47
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, yeah.
26:40.31
mvhuber
Sometimes it's frankly, a lack of resources and I get that too. It's not a perfect system.
26:43.47
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah I think there's a lot of truth to what you said you know what? I'll add to it is I think a lot of the time parents either aware or unaware are vicariously competing through their children.
26:57.75
mvhuber
Yes.
27:02.77
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And they can be quite terrible. Ah if you want the opportunity to feel really awful. Sit in the stance of some of these. Um. Ah, little league football games and listen to the way that parents talk about the other children. It's like they are um I mean this is it's dehumanizing to even use this reference. It's like they're watching show dogs. That they're betting on and I mean it's really it can be a very ugly circumstance and ah the level of competitiveness that exists in these parents that they're then feeding off onto their children.
27:56.48
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Can be quite destructive and I don't know that I tend to see a lot of those parents. Um I tend to see the parents in my experience who are more aware of.
28:13.30
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
The damage that can be done in these highly competitive environments and they want their kids to feel supported I think I tend a lot of the time I don't feel like I have access to the parents who.
28:20.88
mvhuber
Um.
28:26.70
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Are of the mentality that I'm speaking of they wouldn't come in and talk to someone like me because they know what they would hear.
28:33.37
mvhuber
So That's actually a really um, interesting point and it's sort of a coincidental I had a conversation this morning with somebody and I was telling them about what I do and we were talking about what she does for a living and um, she said you must come across a lot of. Micromanaging dads and I said truthfully I don't because the people who come to see me have self- selected they understand that they've sort of reached their limits and capabilities of being able to help their child and so they're deferring to and a quote unquote expert. To help them manage that process and give their child this resource an outlet whereas the parents. You know I mean listen do I get parents who come to me and are really focused on the performance side of it and that if the results aren't there then you know then it's it's my fault. Once in a while. Um, but they're probably not the best clients anyway because they're just not open to change and some of the children are like that they're the young people not open to change and that's that's okay, but to your point right? I think those people that you are describing. That example, they're not the ones who are open to the process of.
29:42.76
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:45.43
mvhuber
You know sports psychology and mental performance coaching because they that you they know deep down inside and I I think what I see is not such an extreme example I see more of it's almost like it's just like town gossip. You know that's kind of the way I describe it talking about different other people. And I had a recent experience. You know of of my own personally with my own daughter and I was at a game. She's playing soccer and I used to coach her I coached the team for a bit so I know a little bit about soccer. But I'm not next part by any means and I was sort of giving her instruction from the sideline and she turned to me at 1 point and she said dad. She's like I have a coach. She's like you're not the coach. So zip it and I was like she got me, you know like I knew she was right? you know and and I I told her after the fact I was like listen I'm Num sorry you were right like I shouldn't have said anything you know you know what you're doing. You have a coach. I know better and I still did it anyway which sort of speaks to my emotional. You know my my parenting you know I'm I'm feeling this like you know, just like it's shaking my insides because she's not doing what I think she's supposed to be doing and that's a reflection to me like this whole like mental breakdown. You know you have somebody who knows but. Is is succumbing to the emotion. But then after the fact you know recently we're walking off the field together and she's saying something about 1 of her teammates. You know sort of making a comment about their level of play and I said well you have a coach and the coach is coaching them and they're doing the best they can so like maybe you need.
31:17.46
mvhuber
To Kind of cool it on you know the commentary and I kind of got her and she knew what I was talking about, but it goes both ways right? and I think it's a culture. You know there's just and it's some of its human nature I think but it's a culture in sports like it's so competitive that we're always comparing ourselves to the next person. And we want to make ourselves feel better or we think that that person's may be holding a team back rather than looking at the person and saying that person's doing their best. Let's help them get better so they can be better and help us like it's more of this like sort of like push down Mentality. So I can look better and I to me like I Just as a coach because I've coached kids. You know in that capacity as a volunteer and like I just don't stand for that like you don't push other people down they're doing the best they can with what they have let's try to elevate them right? Let's try to make them feel better about themselves rather than you know hitting them on the head and telling them they stink you know it's not.. It's not productive.
32:00.62
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
At home.
32:07.61
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
I Think yeah, no I I think it speaks to the difficult dichotomy that coaches have to navigate which is.
32:21.16
mvhuber
Um.
32:23.69
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
On the 1 hand you have to look at your roster like it's a chessboard. Um and what can I do with these pieces to maximize winning because my job depends on it. Um I didn't I didn't take a job all the way out in Iowa.
32:31.82
mvhuber
Right.
32:42.27
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And move my family here so that I could be the nice guy and then get fired after a bad season. Um, so you you don't winning winning for coaches is is sometimes a matter of whether or not you eat? um.
32:46.97
mvhuber
M.
32:58.29
mvhuber
Um, understood. Yes, absolutely.
32:59.34
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But on the other hand I think you have to be very cognizant and aware of your athletes and helping them to grow and to nurture them and I think you can do those things simultaneously. But sometimes it includes making very very hard decisions when you're at the highest level. Um, and I think if you can be empathetic in that process the athletes understand even though it's very very hurtful. They understand Um, but it's.
33:27.59
mvhuber
Um, they do.
33:34.57
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
It's a sad state of affairs. No one wants to give that news.
33:36.25
mvhuber
well well I think you and I think that last point that no one wants to I think for me, it seems that perhaps the biggest element in all of this which we haven't really talked about to a certain extent is is communication. You know if you're an athlete you hear things that you don't want to hear often. And you kind of build up a thick skin right? You build up a resilience because you know that's kind of part of the deal is a risk and reward game. You're you're putting in an investment that you don't know is going to pay off so you kind of get used to that and I I think I mean I'll tie it back to retirement and transition in a bit but like like. With the athletes I work with I've had a Couple Of College Level division one athletes that I work with individually who've come to me about situations with coaches where they're not. They were disappointed with something that happened say and I say well do you know why that happened and they're like no I don't know why that happened and I said what would it be like to go. Talk to your coach and ask them why they did what they did or what why is this is happening and I'm like do you think you could do that and they're like yeah I think I could do it. You know because I do the same thing with them I say listen your coach is getting paid to win games right? or win races and. You know they've got not only you but they've got a whole team of you and assistant coaches and they've got recruiting and they've got pr and they've got administration compliance like they wear that 1000 hats like you're not the only person on the earth you know? and so if you're not happy with something that's going on like could you go talk to them. Yes.
35:08.75
mvhuber
So in all the instances that I've had this conversation when they come back to me I said Well how do you feel and the universal answer is relief like no I didn't like what I heard necessarily. But at least I know so now I could understand and do something about it and I think the lack of communication.
35:15.40
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
You.
35:28.25
mvhuber
If you tie it back to the retirement processes am I getting honest feedback from the people around me about whether or not this is really going to happen. You know is this going to come to an end because I just don't have it or people telling me things that they want me to hear or to keep me motivated are they telling me things that they want me to hear because they're.
35:38.00
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, get um.
35:48.60
mvhuber
Diluted or you know or they're uninformed about what's next right? Like if you're getting honest information as much as that might hurt that's going to inform your decisions and I think there's a lack of preparation in any transition whether it's from high school to college college to pro and then you know any anybody going out I think there's just a lack of. Information.
36:08.28
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Well I think a lot of um, a lot of kids are simply thrown into the next stage with no real clear understanding of the fact that it's even going to be hard I think that there's a lot of apprehension about it.
36:13.78
mvhuber
No.
36:21.47
mvhuber
Um, right.
36:25.61
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
But I don't know that any of them are simply sat Down. It wouldn't even take that long and just have someone for instance like ourselves say so this is what it's going to be like when you first go to college and just that awareness of what to expect. And that it's going to be hard like you said just simply communicating so that they know in advance or that they know what's going on. They feel a little bit of a greater sense of control I think you're right that if people were much more effective and honest communicators.
36:52.48
mvhuber
Then.
37:03.10
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
It would go a long way I'll add one wrinkle to that observation which is sometimes coaches deliberately lie to their athletes. Um, in fact I would make the argument that it happens quite a bit. You have a third. Ah. You have your third man off the bench. He's probably not going to get a lot of playing time but you don't want him to transfer to another school because if you lose a couple of your first stringers then he's your first man off the bench and you want that. Depth of talent. So maybe you give him false hope to keep him on the roster because you don't want to tell him the truth and have him transfer and lead. So you know there's there's again I'll sort of repeat. What I said before the.
37:52.66
mvhuber
And.
38:01.30
mvhuber
Oh and.
38:01.48
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Business of sport is really It's not about making people happy. It's about money. Um, and and whether that money is the prestige of a university or ticket sales or Merch sales. Um, the people who are in it at the highest level. They have a lot of competing interests. But at the end of the day they would love to take care of all of the people. But if they're not making money then they're not going to be long lived in their role.
38:30.28
mvhuber
Right.
38:36.98
mvhuber
Yeah, So ah so in in in the tying it back to the study.. What do you?? What is your sense of the what is there? What is your sense of the things that potentially could be done to address some of those. Issues related to the business of sport or just as people move through like what do you think can be done to help support that process of moving up and through the ranks.
39:04.16
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, so um, in terms of the transition out of sport which is really our focus because quite a bit of attention is already paid to trying to help athletes advance through other transitions.
39:08.90
mvhuber
Um, okay.
39:19.28
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Because they're really motivated to get them to succeed if they struggle you hope that there's some services there although now that I say that I realize that that's not always or often the case in the transition out of sport. My opinion is it really wouldn't take. Much.. It takes a certain amount of attention a certain amount of early intervention and awareness and a certain amount of money and it's really not that much when you think about what most sports bring In. Um.
39:41.98
mvhuber
Um.
39:54.76
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Might be as much as just having a handful of people that are hired by the league to communicate with people on every team early enough that you can start this process of awareness preparation.
40:00.71
mvhuber
Um.
40:13.33
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Developing support systems knowing what those are connecting people to resources thinking about things that they can do while they are competing that can help them to already start to identify.
40:25.44
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah.
40:30.20
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Where they might allocate their time. Their resource their energy when they're no longer competing at the highest level rather than having this fall off a cliff experience where you go from.
40:41.28
mvhuber
Um.
40:44.58
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Let's just use an example of someone who is exceptionally well-known you go from being on everybody's Twitter feed everyone wondering what you're eating for lunch before that sometimes it's hours or days later where no one cares.
40:57.11
mvhuber
Um, right? yeah.
41:04.10
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And all the structure goes all of the attention goes nobody is helping you organize anything that should not be a shock they should know to expect that in advance and already have in their mind. What can I look forward.
41:08.74
mvhuber
Um.
41:22.86
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
What can I look forward to when this is no longer the thing I do every day so I can already think about what's next for me.
41:30.30
mvhuber
Yeah I mean listen I think it's it's It's ah, absolute truism that retirement comes for everybody right at some point so knowing that right and acknowledging that you know what? what is the risk in talking about it and. You know resourcing around it and having that conversation well before it's scheduled to happen because at least you're being realistic and you're preparing yourself. You know in one of my earlier episodes I think I may have mentioned this to you in our offline conversation before this um one ah one of my guests.
41:52.42
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah, right.
42:05.44
mvhuber
I think it was so episode 15 Daryl Stinson talks about it. He played football at central Michigan and Darrel tells a story like it was Nfl or bust and you know I'm going to the Nfl and like that was it right from day one high school whatever like that was the big and then he got hurt and he was like.
42:16.40
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, and.
42:21.29
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
You know.
42:24.63
mvhuber
Severely injured to the point where he had to retire his back was just like right? and so the next three or four years were very very dark for him because he didn't really have a purpose and he you know the way he describes it in the podcast is until he found.
42:35.72
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
The.
42:42.42
mvhuber
Another purpose in his life that wasn't it wasn't until then that he was able to truly move forward and start building something new but that didn't happen that happened he fell off the cliff and had to like get to the bottom before he picked himself up right? So why does somebody have to get to the bottom.
42:48.50
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
You you.
42:59.43
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, and.
43:00.69
mvhuber
In order to pick themselves up right? and there's a lot in that we could talk about that a lot but like it's the truth right? if you start to prepare them and just build a little bit of awareness and give them a little bit of resources right? You're probably reducing the odds that there's going to be a fall off the cliff effect when they retire.
43:07.39
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Um, yeah.
43:16.19
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Yeah I think there's a couple of things that hold back systems. 1 of them is just change. Ah I think systems are very resistant to change they they have ah so they they. There's like a momentum to keeping things the same.
43:23.90
mvhuber
Yeah, um.
43:34.10
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And the other is fear of distraction I Think there's this worry that well I mean if we start talking about your career in philanthropy you know, maybe you won't work as hard. You know we want you singularly focused on being a football player anything else. You think about will act as a distraction.
43:37.50
mvhuber
Um.
43:43.62
mvhuber
And.
43:53.81
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
When the truth is actually the opposite people aren't supposed to think about 1 thing twenty four seven and getting a little bit of space from that actually keeps them fresh when they go back to thinking about it and it actually nurtures their whole person and makes them even better when they're focusing so that you know that's.
44:02.50
mvhuber
Um, bright.
44:13.69
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
That's one part the other part that I found is that athletes who reach the highest level of their sport are kind of compulsive and a little bit o cd by nature. How else does somebody spend 2 hours for 3 straight weeks putting.
44:22.83
mvhuber
Yeah, and sure.
44:32.91
mvhuber
Um, right right.
44:33.80
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
That it wasn't for a sport you would look at them and think they're crazy like medication for this. So there's a little bit of compulsiveness I think to every athlete who reaches the apex of a single sport because we're kind of. We're not meant to do something that much. Um.
44:36.61
mvhuber
Right.
44:42.10
mvhuber
Um, right.
44:52.65
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
And so they're in a way wired and also encouraged to narrowly focus their identity. That's why I say it's sort of a special athlete who doesn't allow that to happen because the gravity. Well I think pulls them towards this singular identity blaming the athlete. I think is inappropriate I think that the culture around sports pulls for it and that's why we need the systems themselves to change the way they go about doing these are kids they do what they're told as much as they you know.
45:22.11
mvhuber
Um, yes.
45:26.21
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
They don't know any better and can't be really expected to. It's the system that has to create the change that allows improvement. We can't expect the athletes to do it or blame them for the fact that it happens.
45:37.38
mvhuber
I Think that's a really interesting point and I think it does apply in the world that we work in right? You know you you know you could try to change the system and that's noble, right? like but I think for me personally I know this is the system especially when there's money involved. Like people are just going to gravitate to that because that's human Nature. So How do we then? create betterment within that system so that it's not as destructive. Okay.
45:59.10
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
The.
46:06.82
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Well, yeah, so here's my pitch for the study. You know the answer that is knowledge and fan awareness. Um you you have to have information that means something to people. And that happened for instance with Cte and then there has to be a large enough groundswell of stakeholder awareness that this is an important issue to consider our retired athletes are dying and suffering at a rate that is much higher. The general population and people need to know that and know specifically how it's happening and what we can do about it and then systems do change but there has to be a very strong and compelling reason. Mostly because the people who hold the purse rings I think many of them want to care. Maybe they're not quite entirely sure how But if I were them I would feel a very strong investment to keep things the same It's working for me.
47:11.33
mvhuber
Sure Yeah I Listen I think that's well said and I think it is it goes back to me. It goes back to the empathy point which is to say like people do things for a reason if you understand why they're doing it. It doesn't you don't have to be happy about it. But it's a lot easier to make sense of it and then. Take appropriate action around it rather than you know resisting it and you know swearing at that and saying you should be different. Well, That's just not the way it's going to be right? So I think it is important and I think the more knowledge we have the Better. So if I'm. I'm looking at your website So it's athlete transitionstudy.com.
47:48.48
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Right? And you can from that launch point on the homepage take the survey which anyone who has played at the elite level and is retired for more than three months so you can be retired for three months three years thirty years as long as you competed at the collegiate level or higher in any sport you can take the survey and for people who never competed at the elite level. We also have a questionnaire for you because we want to know how athletes are doing compared to the typical population. But the website also has more information about the transition experience. There's a list of resources. There's information about the people who are leading the study if you want to share a little bit about your specific experience in transition. We have a your story page where we publish. It's not that is not confidential. The questionnaires are confidential but your story will be put out on the website if you want to share your experiences and we we are really hoping to get as many of you as possible to donate your time. Share your wisdom and our intention is to use that to the best of our ability to create change moving forward.
49:06.82
mvhuber
Excellent. Yeah, so if anyone's listening and knows someone who is an athlete or if you're an athlete yourself, please make the investment of the 20 or 25 minutes to contribute to this very important piece of research. So um. As we wrap up Dan I'll I'll ask you the last question that I ask everybody frame different ways for different people. But if you had to give 1 piece of advice to a transitioning athlete or retiring athlete. What would that piece of advice. Be.
49:38.48
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
1 piece of advice. Hi sure you don't have an hour um I think that the best advice I can give is don't do it alone. Um, reach out to your support systems. Ah allow people to help. Talk to spend time with you share you know, open up with the people who care and be open to reaching out to programs and people who really want to be there for you. You'll be able to tell who those people are by the way they respond if you call up your ex coach and they're really dismissive. Don't keep knocking on that door. We're looking into who the most valuable resources are for people generally It's family romantic partners. Um past teammates. But there's also a lot of programs that are created by ex athletelets like yourself and they really do want to be there to help to help you find a new career to help you connect to other people with similar circumstances. To help you utilize the brand name that you developed as an athlete to your own cause watch out for the ones that are going to ask you for a big infusion of money on the front. Those are not the ones to really stick with.
51:07.54
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Many of these are run by just well-meaning athletes who don't want others to go through the tough experience. You are so the 1 piece of advice advice I'll give is don't do it alone open up and share and reach out to people.
51:21.33
mvhuber
That's great and it's a great way to to finish the conversation Dan thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and spending the time with me I I really enjoyed the conversation is very very very interesting.
51:31.13
Dan Zimet_ PhD CMPC
Mike thank you so much for the platform and thanks to all of your listeners.
51:35.49
mvhuber
Thank you.