How is Bill Eckstrom helping coaches and administrators “look in the mirror”?
Anyone who has ever attended a youth sports game knows that the sideline can be a pretty intense place. Emotions often run high as parents, coaches, and young athletes strive for results. However, player development and a healthy motivational climate are often sacrificed as a result.
My guest in this episode, Bill Eckstrom, is the Chief Executive Officer of Ecsell Sports, an organization that is laser focused on advancing the student-athlete experience. Ecsell Sports advises coaches and athletic directors on how to improve that experience through a research-based approach.
In Episode 53, Bill shares how his own experiences inspired him to help coaches and administrators create a better experience for their student-athletes.
So, what’s your biggest takeaway from my conversation with Bill Eckstrom?
My biggest takeaway is that all of us need coaching. We all have blind sports. It is often hard for us to see what we need to be doing differently to be our best. The same goes for coaches and administrators.
My suggestion to coaches and administrators is to look in the mirror as Bill suggests. Try to answer this question as honestly as possible - are you doing everything you can to create the best possible student-athlete experience? If the answer is no, then think about what you can do differently to serve your student-athletes better.
I want to thank Bill for his kind generosity and the wisdom he shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can learn more about Bill by visiting https://billeckstrom.com. You can learn more about Ecsell Sports by visiting https://https://ecsellsports.com/.
To learn how mental performance coaching can help your mind work FOR you rather than against you, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back soon for Episode 54!
00:01.18
mvhuber
Hey Bill how are you doing thanks for joining me. It's great to have you. It's great to see you. Um, and I'm looking forward to having this conversation so you know before we we hit record you know I was I was saying that you know I watched a little bit of your most recent Ted.
00:03.30
Bill Eckstrom
Um, Mike come great. Thanks for having me.
00:18.73
mvhuber
Talk tedx talk and Reno and I couldn't you know help but be impressed by the way you open the talk which was talking about a personal experience. You had as an athlete and your relationship or the experience you had with coaches at the time could you maybe just start out by sort of you know. Recounting that story because I think it's a good framework for this conversation.
00:41.64
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, oh boy, um, can bring up my mind, get shivers here thinking that um it it you know it's funny. Mike Nobody's ever asked me about this and um. To to start that tedx talk with this story. Um, it's first time I've ever really opened up about this but my dream as a kid was to be Bart Starr you know Green Bay Packers quarterback it kind of tells you how old I am.
01:17.59
mvhuber
I said.
01:18.48
Bill Eckstrom
If anybody knows that name. Um, but I had a lot of amazing experiences as starting quarterback of I just that was just what I did I just expected and anyway if I got to. Um, a program a year which back then what have I supposed been able to select football. It was you know of Tryout teams and I had a shoulder injury that summer and I was afraid to to tell anybody about that injury.
01:39.44
mvhuber
You know.
01:55.18
Bill Eckstrom
Number one I didn't want it to prevent me from playing quarterback a B you know if I was raised in an environment where if you're hurt, you just sucked sucked it up and played of. Long short of it was it prevented me from throwing the ball like more than 10 yards looking back I'm sure I had a rotator cuff tear. But anyway what happened was the coaches. Never even asked they didn't inquire they didn't care if all.
02:16.82
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah.
02:26.69
Bill Eckstrom
They could see and I mentioned this entire all they could see was a quarterback who could not bring them victories. It's all they wanted was to win Win Win I understand the desire went I Love to win to um, but in doing So Emotionally, they just tore me Apart. You know if they called me an embarrassment um told me I wasn't going to be I wasn't even invited to play ah offense anymore you know had me need practice. Um, and and none of this was for lack of effort. It was just for lack of the ability to execute.
03:06.51
Bill Eckstrom
And it was probably one of the greatest also motivators I had in my life especially to start the businesses that I now um have started and a Ceo of.
03:19.54
mvhuber
Um.
03:21.92
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, though 1 of the most recent being this sports division of what we do.
03:27.16
mvhuber
Yeah, it's I I certainly can relate to the story that you told and that you just sort of recounted on a number of levels because ah if I think back to my own. Playing days as a football player I had a number of injuries that I never reported to coaches because I was afraid that I would either not play or I would be considered. You know, letting to be letting the team down so I just did it right? So that's that's the 1 thing but on a professional level right. There's this just fundamental um concept of the coach athlete relationship that I tend I consider myself a student of right I'm curious about that relationship specifically and maybe not dissimilar from any other relationships right in our lives you know relationships are based on. Trust. But coach athlete is certainly one that's unique in a lot of ways so like can you can you talk about like what you do um to study that at at the Excel Institute
04:27.41
Bill Eckstrom
Sure, um, and thank you for asking that question Mike we are really all we're about on the sports division is is understanding that student athlete. Coach dynamic we refer to it as a student athlete experience which everybody's probably going to be listening to this has heard that term before um and what was really interesting to us is when we were kind of drawn into the world of athletics with our work and our work forever.
04:47.37
mvhuber
If.
05:04.72
Bill Eckstrom
On the business side. We have quantified a leader's impact on the growth and performance of their teams in the business World. We were asked to bring our work and and apply it to the world of sports as specifically as it relates to coaching. Um, and the student athlete dynamic so you know being a research-based Organization. Our ah our executive director for research started doing series of focus groups with athletic directors and coaches and players and students and um.
05:26.79
mvhuber
Um.
05:40.20
Bill Eckstrom
And then she did one we did 1 on 1 conversation with professional athletes and so we did a lot of due diligence. What was interesting to us Mike is when we did focus groups with 80 s and um and coaches. This is at the high school level.
05:59.89
Bill Eckstrom
That we did most of these focus groups other conversations with professional athletes but 80 focus groups coaches were at high school level and um the 80 s and coaches both said unequivocally the most important. Um. Most important item in their world was to make sure their student athletes had the best possible experience in high school coaches said the same thing we asked about winning.
06:26.37
mvhuber
A.
06:32.48
Bill Eckstrom
That's down a ways Don they love to win. They get it. They understood it coaches ranked it higher but a d and coaches. Both agreed the most important thing to them was making sure their student athletes had the best possible experience. So then the the follow question that staia um or director research asked she said can you tell me. If that is happening and both focus groups just got dead quiet. Mike I mean they they looked at each other and they looked at us and said I don't know we hope they are but we don't know and it.
06:55.90
mvhuber
Um, right.
07:03.27
mvhuber
Right in.
07:10.43
Bill Eckstrom
So basically did she paraphrase. She said let me let me make sure I understand the most important thing to you as a coach or an athletic director is to make sure your student athletes have a great experience but nobody can tell me whether or not that it's happening and they all agreed.
07:14.80
mvhuber
Keep.
07:29.10
mvhuber
Yeah.
07:29.64
Bill Eckstrom
Then none of them knew so that was our segue that was our and what we do then is if we survey student athletes coaches administrators to get a science based look. And to to be able to actually quantify experience. Student athletes have and then we report that back to coaches a Ds and whoever you know to the state course.
07:51.14
mvhuber
Um, right? right? Yeah I mean when you were saying that sort of the the light bulb went off for me which is to say right one you can you? you can. Have an agreement or an understanding that this is the most important thing but how you measure and define that can vary greatly across a population right? Like you know it's easy to say like hey we want the best experience for the student athlete. But what does that mean. Need to be able to set a very clear understanding across all participants right? have a consensus about this is what it looks like this is what we need to do and this is how we need to measure it to make sure they're getting that otherwise you know you could all have an agreement but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get the results you want.
08:39.88
Bill Eckstrom
Yeah, but Mike that's that's great. That's a great point. You know if when you think about it. It's somewhat silly. It'd be like gasketing a basketball coach hey what's the most important role for your point guard and they may say assists.
08:56.23
mvhuber
Right.
08:58.59
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, great How many assist the average one you know know what they would never say that right because they study and analyze and know and are able to track. What's most important to success in the position but when it comes to coaching the most important thing they said top down.
09:02.68
mvhuber
Right? right.
09:09.65
mvhuber
And.
09:17.50
Bill Eckstrom
Was the experience but yet none of them quantified it so that was that was our okay, That's what we're going to do if that is that important to you.
09:20.18
mvhuber
Yeah.
09:30.79
Bill Eckstrom
We will have learned to quantify that and so you go through steps like you know? Ah yeah, you have to define what the student athlete experience means and so you got to put definitions to things and then then you go about measuring. So.
09:38.70
mvhuber
Ah.
09:41.36
mvhuber
Right? So So as I understand it your audience Constituency client base is schools right? Administrators coaches et Cetera right? who are making those decisions and sort of you know executing that. Experience for the student Athletes. So How would you characterize the receptivity of that audience excuse me when you go to to to sort of speak to them and explain what you do like? What's the what? What do you hear? I mean I'm sure it varies but like what's the sort of general. Sentiment from from those people that you're talking to.
10:19.88
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, another great question Mike it's it's well received and the reason why and this is what I love about working in the world of athletics versus business. So me wrong. Love the business side.
10:30.93
mvhuber
Right.
10:37.20
Bill Eckstrom
Been doing it for over a decade. Um, but what's amazing about the athletic role is several others so number one, especially the high school level you coaches and athletic directors others be but they're not in it for the money they're in it for the love.
10:41.46
mvhuber
Um, if that's.
10:50.95
mvhuber
Right.
10:56.15
Bill Eckstrom
And in the purity and in this is of the ass of of sports of athletics and more importantly, by and large again I'm going to put ninety some percentile they care most about the kids they really do and so when you.
11:11.27
mvhuber
Um, yeah.
11:16.90
Bill Eckstrom
When we have conversations around the student athlete experience. Never do I hear an athletic director or a coach say not no interest I don't care about that. They always want to know more about it. Um.
11:25.81
mvhuber
Yeah.
11:33.10
Bill Eckstrom
Now whether they do things or not because here's the rub to report back to an athletic director. Um, and this we could open a big cat of worms here. Ah. How? well their coaches are impacting the experience of the student athletes. You know there's some onus then Mike on the a d to do something about it. Yeah especially if if it's if the impact doesn't what it should be or it's a negative impact right.
11:49.10
mvhuber
And her.
11:55.21
mvhuber
Something about it right? exactly right. Right? right? So So it's easier to to to not know than it is to know because now right.
12:06.67
Bill Eckstrom
Yeah, you right? It's you've nailed it sometimes I would just soon not know because I know I have problems now rarely do we get when an eighty get a report back on a coach where they're like stunned you know? ah.
12:16.13
mvhuber
Are.
12:23.36
mvhuber
Um, right.
12:24.94
Bill Eckstrom
Maybe through parents through student athletes through observation. They pretty much know. Um, but now when you got a piece of paper that says your coach. Ah, let's just say your volleyball coach has.
12:39.65
mvhuber
Yeah, okay.
12:43.54
Bill Eckstrom
Only four out of 10 of their 40% of their student athletes. Believe they have a trust connection with their coach now as an a d I should do something with that as a coach.
12:56.38
mvhuber
Sure yeah.
13:00.92
Bill Eckstrom
I would I would want to do something with that. So it it sometimes what were your we we like to use the term Mike um, there's a gap between intellectual, understanding and emotional readiness to act. Ah, and.
13:01.96
mvhuber
Yeah.
13:16.44
mvhuber
Um, Nope sure.
13:18.87
Bill Eckstrom
We all have it. It talk that sometimes that that gap or perhaps it's a chasm depending on the person. Ah.
13:22.92
mvhuber
Yeah, it's the it's the Change. It's the change process right? It's any decision that we make that we want to change something we have to be motivated enough to go ahead and do something about it and we may not be ready to do that just yet, but it takes time sometimes. To get to the point where you're ready to pull that trigger and say okay I need to do something about this. He.
13:42.89
Bill Eckstrom
Well yeah I mean you're a psychologist my goodness you understand how how we yeah we go through right? We we have a stimulus and then we have an emotional response to it and the response creates a behavior and the behavior creates something right.
13:53.90
mvhuber
Ah.
14:00.66
mvhuber
Um, yeah, um, yeah.
14:01.25
Bill Eckstrom
And action. Ah, you know and and it is so every eighty says it's important and agrees. Um, now there are a few out there and I don't know if you ran into them where. They're perhaps more old school may don't want the student athlete to have a voice. Ah.
14:23.68
mvhuber
Okay, so I know but but that's where I was gonna go next because I don't know if I have any specific examples but but that concept right? like I'm thinking about what you do first which is to say I would imagine at some level if you start to work with a. Ah school There's going to be a survey process with the student athlete is that correct right? So if if I'm an athletic director or a coach just by virtue of giving a kid a survey to give their opinion. You've already started to build that bridge because you're giving them a say.
14:46.18
Bill Eckstrom
Correct.
15:01.90
mvhuber
Right? Even if it's just perceived even if they take that survey and they throw it in the garbage The kid says at least hey I'm able to just you know give my opinion because what I experience in in the work that I do is when I work with a kid even at at the high school or college level where they're.
15:01.81
Bill Eckstrom
Um, not.
15:19.48
mvhuber
You know they're pretty mature relatively speaking and I ask them to give me feedback or I say to them hey this is your process like ask me questions like or tell me I need to do something different or you know if you're not getting what you need let me know that is a very uncomfortable place for student athlete. Because my sense is they rarely ever get that from their coaches right? It's on the Coach. You're the athlete I tell you what to do and you do it or there's the perception that I can't go to the coach because I don't want to be perceived a certain way as the athlete. So I keep quiet sort of like what you were saying.
15:44.67
Bill Eckstrom
Um, more of.
15:58.70
mvhuber
About your injury right? I'm going to keep it to myself because I don't want my coach to think something's wrong with me So I'm just going to write not say anything and I think that that dynamic that ability to communicate and to give the student athlete a voice is so critical in the athletic experience because. To use a term that you you know I think you yeah I get the sense. That's really important to you and your work is psychological safety right to have that psychological safety to go to that person who's supposed to be caring for you and be able to tell them what you need and not feel like you're going to be punished for it.
16:31.67
Bill Eckstrom
Yes, yes, it is and if there I mean there's so many examples So many places we could go with this. But if to give someone a voice in their own development.
16:39.32
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah.
16:50.10
mvhuber
Um, yeah.
16:51.10
Bill Eckstrom
To give someone a voice in how they want to be treated um to give to to give someone a voice to let them know that perhaps I don't like the way I'm being treated now. Let me preface to solve by saying.
17:03.90
mvhuber
Yeah.
17:11.10
Bill Eckstrom
While we measure psychological safety we measure trust connections. We also measure challenge because we're big believers in coaches ability to create healthy discomfort as well because growth only occurs.
17:15.22
mvhuber
Mean.
17:25.87
mvhuber
Sure.
17:30.47
Bill Eckstrom
And those excuse me in those environments but you'll notice how I put the term with the word healthy in front of discomfort because you can as my coach Mike you can create discomfort for me by through fear now take you back to my previous coaches right.
17:38.99
mvhuber
Um, right.
17:49.37
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, fear based coaching I could be uncomfortable and I can grow as a result but it doesn't mean I'm going to have a great experience as well. So we don't We're not believers in this big group hug Kumba Ya Love fest that doesn't create tension.
17:58.67
mvhuber
Um, ah.
18:03.83
mvhuber
Right in.
18:09.15
Bill Eckstrom
Were believers in trust were believers in psych safety. We're believers in connections as the foundation from which then you will have earned the right as a coach to push to challenge to meet me uncomfortable to help me grow and it's quite frankly, it's got to go in that order as well too.
18:22.45
mvhuber
Yep.
18:28.72
Bill Eckstrom
So by giving me a voice I'm telling you I'm helping you as a coach I'm helping an athletic director as an administrator understand where I'm at in that journey and where the coach is at in that journey together.
18:42.51
mvhuber
Um, and.
18:44.90
Bill Eckstrom
We can create some amazing growth and development in coaches that wasn't there before because while student athletes I me think about this I mean why I can get it on a roll right now. Um, you know if I've done work at the collegiate level with athletes. Um.
18:49.55
mvhuber
Ah.
19:03.20
Bill Eckstrom
And say a gymnast can during a workout, get off of a routine an apparatus and immediately watch it and get graded immediately right on how well she did of and can then turn around and go back.
19:07.73
mvhuber
I.
19:15.98
mvhuber
Um, right.
19:22.52
Bill Eckstrom
And with coach feedback as well as just video feedback I know what I can do to improve how does a coach do that. How does a coach know what are those things we're giving to coaches.
19:36.76
mvhuber
I am.
19:37.44
Bill Eckstrom
That allow them the same opportunity to grow that they expect from their student athletes every single day. That's really what we need.
19:44.78
mvhuber
Um, that's really interesting because you know not at the level you're doing at it. But you know I have again I'm just a generally a curious person but in my professional world I'm very curious about coach education right? because. In the United States just take as an example, right? We don't have any really national centralized bodies for coaching or or federations right? maybe soccer. But that's about it or Usa hockey. But there's very few. It's very decentralized when ends up happening is that the standards are different all over the place right? And so like. Coaches don't have to get education. They just show up and go to their job. They don't have to do professional development if they don't want to in a lot of cases or maybe they're getting the wrong kind of coaching. Maybe they need a psychological and emotional coaching versus tactical and technical There's a deficiency there right? like. They need to get better too so they could be better for the people that they're serving I think that that's really important. So do you I mean I guess I mean now I'm really curious about the work that you do I mean in terms of that is it just giving those organizations the schools, the administrators the information or do you do some sort of programming.
20:46.10
Bill Eckstrom
Um.
20:56.21
mvhuber
On the back end of that.
20:57.55
Bill Eckstrom
We if we do ah my programming on the back end if it wouldn't be I wouldn't feel good about hey um, here's what you do? Well you're a great communicator. You're great at challenging. You're good at developing their skills. Um, but you're creating poor psychological safety and you.
21:06.25
mvhuber
No.
21:15.55
Bill Eckstrom
Um, your your connection with your student athletes is average at best that you know have fun. Go at it. Go get them tiger so you know what we we have created an online learning portal through a learning management system.
21:22.55
mvhuber
Um, right, right? right.
21:33.50
Bill Eckstrom
That has everything from kind of a community aspect to it so they can communicate with other coaches across the country as well as formalized training like how do I create Greater psychological safety within my team. What is it that I can do as a coach.
21:41.62
mvhuber
And right.
21:52.20
Bill Eckstrom
To improve my connection with my athletes and in site safety. So when we look at relationship for example, um the relationship between coach and and student athlete.
21:55.36
mvhuber
And.
22:07.87
Bill Eckstrom
We break that down into 2 2 pieces psych safety and trust-based connections. Those typically not typically if I would say across the board and we've measured now probably over half a million interactions between coaches and student athletes those 2 mike.
22:10.24
mvhuber
And.
22:27.10
Bill Eckstrom
Psych safety and trust connections are the lowest scores that coaches get 1 ne's in the 60 some percentile the other is in the seventy first percentile um and that's always those 2 are always the 1 where coach catches a coach off guard. You know they.
22:29.75
mvhuber
Down.
22:42.44
mvhuber
Um, yeah.
22:44.32
Bill Eckstrom
They they think oh yeah I Love my I Love my athletes and they do they care about them deeply but they just don't the athletes. Don't know it.
22:47.00
mvhuber
Right. Right? So what? I What I find fascinating about that or was really interesting to me because of the work that I do see I coach it from the other side which is to say hey young person. Yes, your coaches the grown up. Yes, you trust them? Yes, you expect them to. Serve and take care of you as a coach but right you have to understand that's there's one coach or 3 coaches and there's 50 of you and that coach has another job potentially has other responsibilities has a family blah Blah Blah. There's only so much Bandwidth to go around right? So Even if your coach loves you. He may not have the time the energy or the information that he needs to serve you. So Athlete you need to learn empathy for your coach and you need to take at some level responsibility for yourself meaning. If You're not getting what you need Now, you need to go ask for it which is I could tell you is highly uncomfortable for the athlete because it's so unusual. But what I usually hear from my athletes is when I get to ah a place where I have a student athlete who comes to me and I've had a couple at the.
24:07.28
mvhuber
Division 1 college level like come to me and I'm like listen now your coach has got a lot going on I said what would it be like to go talk to your coach about your issue I don't know I don't know we walk talk through it. They go to have the conversation and then they come back and I say how did it go and they say well I didn't hear exactly what I wanted to hear. But. They universally feel the same thing. What do you think that is what do you think they feel. Yeah, what do you think they feel.
24:31.79
Bill Eckstrom
Are are it? Ah um I apologize. So how how does a coach feel about.
24:37.64
mvhuber
How does the student at the student athlete goes to the coach and says I'm having this issue or I'm I'm trying to understand why coach you're doing what you're doing. Why aren't I playing or whatever and the student athlete comes back to me and says I didn't hear exactly what I wanted to. But.
24:47.56
Bill Eckstrom
No.
24:56.76
mvhuber
Now I know like what's that What do you think the feeling is that they all say they feel exactly relief. They're all relieved right now I'm not I didn't love what the coach said to me. But at least I know exactly where I stand.
25:01.40
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, what was probably relief probably heard you know.
25:14.84
mvhuber
Right? And that sort of goes back to what you're talking about right? if the coaches are letting those athletes know where they stand whether good bad or otherwise it creates that healthy discomfort of like hey I love you. But these are the things that you need to do to get better and I'll help you do that now of a sudden you've created this. Dialogue with the athlete like hey like I see you and and I'm not going to sugar code it but like this is what you need to do and this is how we're going to help you right? That's to me that's the essence of good coaching and I think that the communication piece is really the thing that gets missed right. Communication is typically not very good for whatever reason so I'll I'll let you pick up there. Um.
25:56.27
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, no, if it um I loved your story because for a lot of reasons of everybody has ownership in in development of.
26:11.98
Bill Eckstrom
You know I ask coaches all the time who owns their development you know, just general and and they'll always say well we own our own development right? But you also have to walk away and say Wow That's true. But yeah I still own my the the development my kids too right? Even though.
26:29.80
mvhuber
Sheriff.
26:31.70
Bill Eckstrom
My job in their development is help them understand they own their development right? But you know it it similarly if I was working with a ah ah D One female athlete who had mentioned something about you know G bill you've told me.
26:33.94
mvhuber
Right.
26:49.57
Bill Eckstrom
You know how big relationships are've I've heard you talk about how I have to have a connection with my coach and get to know them they and they have to get to know me right? and the coach had admonished her for something a series of things and she was so angry He doesn't know me, He's not gotten to know me how dare he come down on me like this.
26:56.29
mvhuber
A.
27:09.56
Bill Eckstrom
You know, knowing that he should be connecting with me first before he does that and my response is like yours I just said so you understand how important connections are you done right? Bill I do so you're gonna blame him now you're a victim. What can you do to make this what.
27:25.80
mvhuber
Right? what.
27:28.66
Bill Eckstrom
What how much of this do you own and that was I don't think was the answer She thought she was going to get you know at the time in the moment but it made her stop in her track say oh oh oh? okay so I can go I have onus in this as well.
27:33.53
mvhuber
Right? right. Exactly.
27:45.47
mvhuber
Down.
27:47.27
Bill Eckstrom
And so we need might through your work and through art we need to continue to attack the growth of both sides in a healthy way. We can't be just doing athletes. We can't be just coaches. We can't be just administration.
27:51.20
mvhuber
M.
27:56.81
mvhuber
Yes, yes, okay.
28:06.83
Bill Eckstrom
Everybody has a responsibility to get involved and to develop and I have yeah ire believe this too all growth and I tell coaches this all the time you want your team to get better. You want your team to grow you want your team to evolve go home at first look in the mirror.
28:07.48
mvhuber
And.
28:22.68
mvhuber
Yeah.
28:24.15
Bill Eckstrom
Because how they respond you're the biggest trigger in their life and the response to your triggers you know is either creating growth or not creating growth so you want you want more growth going and look in the mirror and say how are you going to evolve because if you do that first. It also sets the table for your student athletes.
28:34.50
mvhuber
And.
28:40.17
mvhuber
Yeah, exactly right? Yeah I I couldn't agree with you more I mean that's it's a really I love the conversation because I think it's just so it's so important and as I as we're talking I'm thinking about like what does it mean right? What does it mean. For a student athlete to have a good experience. It means really at the end of the day that they continue on in sport because if they're not having a good experience. They're going to quit right? and so it's up to the not only the coaches right? and and we're not going to really get into the side of it. But it's also. The parents are a function of that right? they create the the motivational climate or they help to create it like the coaches do so that the kid wants to continue to grow. They want to get better right? like in the Ted talk you were talking about like winning is important because it's important to kids. Kids want to win. They want to get the results back and the feeling of winning back from all the effort that they put in so winning is important to them but growing getting better is important having a good time is important all those things factor into the experience and the and the motivation to continue on. And we all have a responsibility in that to your point right? We're all coaches, parents administrators the athlete. Everyone's got a stake in it and I think if those things are communicated clearly and and and properly upfront.
29:59.19
Bill Eckstrom
You.
30:10.24
mvhuber
That maximizes the chances of success on the backend right? It doesn't guarantee it necessarily because life is life but it maximized the chances of success and if we can get to a place where everybody's on the same page in agreement which I'm imagining your work does if somebody brings you in if some school brings you in and says hey come do this.
30:12.30
Bill Eckstrom
Um, right.
30:28.91
mvhuber
Now of a sudden like you said you kind of open up this dialogue for how do we get better and now what do we need to do. You're almost sort of like starting from scratch again like let's let's really like get this to a place where we want it to be right? like like tell me about a success story that you've had like you know you don't have to name names but like. Can you give me an example.
30:48.28
Bill Eckstrom
Um, oh there's there've been. We've we've had so many wonderful. Um I'm trying to think I've I've seen coaches um make significant changes. And really positively impact of the student athletes and I've seen same coaches tank it I've seen coaches that just are at a high level all the time that they're.
31:06.33
mvhuber
Um.
31:09.43
mvhuber
P.
31:20.68
Bill Eckstrom
They just are so in tune with the kids that they're coaching of and the the things that are written about them. The things the way the kids respond to them. You know they're life changing when the kid when the kids are writing on on this. We give them maper.
31:23.15
mvhuber
Me.
31:39.64
Bill Eckstrom
Opportunity to just hey anything else. You'd like to share and when the kids ride on there. Yeah when I get older I want to be just like her if I ever become a coach I would coach exactly the way he coaches me. Um this guy has changed my life.
31:40.78
mvhuber
Sure. So.
31:53.10
mvhuber
Um.
31:58.40
Bill Eckstrom
Those are the things that when you focus on the out the experience and not winning. Winning is an outcome. It's a measuring stick I said this in the Ted talk. It's not good stop. It is it is what it is. It's an outcome right.
32:09.10
mvhuber
Um, you did right.
32:14.22
Bill Eckstrom
Ah, it's It's a goal and it's healthy to have those things in place but you can't control the winds you can control all the prep that comes up before it.
32:22.85
mvhuber
Um, driven.
32:24.76
Bill Eckstrom
And so if coaches you know we they tell athletes all the time I know they do which hey all we can control is how hard we practice. All we controls our effort right? All those controllable things right? Well what about you? Coach what are you controlling and if coaches focused on. Providing the best possible experience what we see in the business world is that the team that reports to that meter. The people that reported that meter give the most amount of discretionary effort. We're seeing the same things we're continuing to do research on this but same same thing in the world of sport if you provide me Mike You 're my coach. You know me as a person you ask about my life outside of the sport I know you care about me beyond the sport. You challenge me you you love me but man you push me right? I'm going to give you more effort than I would most coaches I'm going to give you that what we refer to as discretionary effort and so if you want.
33:25.50
mvhuber
Um, yeah, yep.
33:37.55
Bill Eckstrom
More wins quit focusing on wins and start focusing on the experience because you're gonna get more from me than you would otherwise.
33:42.79
mvhuber
Yes, and I think you said it in the Ted talk and this is something and and I don't I'm paraphrasing and maybe if I get this wrong, you could correct me but you talk sort of about that idea of discretionary effort and I think the irony of it is this is that. If you create the environment for the athlete to choose and you put the focus on that the wings will come that. That's my personal opinion. That's not science. That's that's what I believe right? if you create the environment for the athlete to thrive and to be happy and to play hard and to.
34:10.67
Bill Eckstrom
You.
34:19.94
mvhuber
Love the experience. That's when you get the wins when you put the focus on the winds now. All of a sudden it becomes this spotlight on the athlete to be perfect because the only thing that's going to be acceptable is a win now I can't screw up because if I do I'm a failure right? and so it's almost like this sort of. You know this? um you know paradox. It's like it's very It's so interesting and I think coaches do focus on the wins and losses because it's tangible. It's tangible. It's accepted yadda yadda yadda. But when you do that like you said in the talk which I loved and it's it's common sense but it makes it people don't think about it this way is. 98 Eight Ninety nine percent of coaches end the season with a loss right? So does that make your season a failure in my book. It doesn't right. Did you get better. Did you you know? maybe you lost the last game or maybe you did the best you could with what you had. Maybe you outperformed your talent. Whatever it is a good coaching job is not solely based on.
35:05.80
Bill Eckstrom
Um, the writer.
35:16.71
mvhuber
Wins and losses. It can't be because then we'd only have one good coach and hundreds of crappy ones.
35:22.86
Bill Eckstrom
Right? Because every 98% of their teams lose their last game of the season. So it's ridiculous to base success solely on that. Um, and you're right? That was that that was part of my talk. Yeah.
35:24.57
mvhuber
It exactly? Yes, it is.
35:39.51
Bill Eckstrom
To to convince a coach which I did I had the ability to do to convince a coach to spend less time in the gym working on skills and drills and spend more time away from the gym creating stronger relationships working on a healthy mindset. Improve Team dynamics resulted in no parent issues more wins school record for wins right? All those things on place when when we quit focusing on them. Wow Look what can happen.
35:59.11
mvhuber
Yeah.
36:11.90
mvhuber
Right? Well I think I think you've put your finger on something that I see quite a bit of which is like in my work right? like either when it's when it's been with a team or when it's with an individual either doesn't matter. But there's this really? What's the right word. There's just reluctance to put aside physical training skill development practice court time field time aside for hey I'm going to work on the mental stuff and the way I try to frame. It is like listen if you're a college athlete you're spending twenty thirty forty hours a week on your sport. All I'm asking for you to do is spend 45 minutes with me in a session and spend another 15 to 30 minutes outside of it working on some other stuff so one hour versus 30 most kids when I ask them how much mental work. Do you do and you could probably get the same answer from a coach is how much mental work. Do you do is 0 right? How much time. Do you spend on your on your sport like physically gazillion hours does that make sense right? Like at this point you've put in so many hours and there's there's automaticity built in and I think you sort of alluded to that right? This is automaticity. You've played so much basketball soccer football hockey. You name it. You know how to do it.
37:12.30
Bill Eckstrom
Um, no.
37:28.60
mvhuber
Right? What's the marginal return of another hour you know, practicing your dribbling. But what if you put an hour practicing on you know, working on the teamen dynamics or your mindset or you know you, you're breathing or whatever it is. That's not specifically related to being on the court. The marginal return on that is through the roof but like it's.
37:43.61
Bill Eckstrom
My.
37:46.71
mvhuber
There's so much I think we live in such a fear-based like risk averse world right? We want to do what we know is tangible and has proven success when you do something. That's maybe a little bit more abstract or different. Everybody's like well why am I wasting my time and nobody has the patience or the curiosity. A lot of times to try this stuff because they feel like it's not giving me an immediate return which is which is a shame.
38:09.67
Bill Eckstrom
You're right? Mike and um, it's it gets back to the intellectual understanding and emotional readiness. Even even ah when you walk through the the psychology of sport.
38:17.98
mvhuber
Yes, if.
38:25.22
Bill Eckstrom
Right? The psychology of performance. The mental game. There are very few coaches I think that would say it's not important as a matter of fact I think many would say the closer.
38:25.31
mvhuber
And.
38:34.44
mvhuber
Yeah.
38:40.77
Bill Eckstrom
You get to the actual performance itself. the gain the match whatever it may be. You know if I'm a figure skater. Whatever the amount that the shift from technical work skill work to mindset work. Should begin to shift. Um, and if there's sports I up does work canadian olympic team up in Canada's name's Dr. Peter Jensen I'm paraphrasing this but it was in his his book and he shared this with me. He's wonderful man. But as they get.
39:11.70
mvhuber
Um, yeah.
39:18.23
Bill Eckstrom
You know like a week out. Ah coaches should are thinking this probably you know? Um, how was it ah 3 3 hours 3 days thirty days you know three? yeah that 3 hours out from the competition. They believe it's probably ninety ten coaches say 90% of that point mental 10% physical but yet when asked to amize the conversations with their athletes as a coach. It's 90% technical and physical and only ten percent mental. You know.
39:36.76
mvhuber
Um, now.
39:41.42
mvhuber
And.
39:51.88
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah.
39:55.14
Bill Eckstrom
They just they have a hard time making the shift. So intellectually they get it. But it's what they know it's what they grew up with you and I didn't grow up with sports psych.
39:59.43
mvhuber
Um, yeah, yeah, Nope Nope and I I think you know to some of it. You know to not to and and I'm not going to go down this road. But I think the word that comes to mind when you describe that is control right. It's a lot easier to control the physical right? if I'm in a stressful situation where I'm about to go out and compete in the competition of my life I Want a sense of control because my emotions are probably all over the place. My thoughts are all over the place. But if I can control.
40:17.86
Bill Eckstrom
Um, meant.
40:29.65
mvhuber
What's going on around me by doing exactly what I know how to do Automatically, it's going to make me feel more comfortable rather than sort of leaning into the emotion or leaning into the thinking of Wow This is really hard like how am I going to deal with it like people want to run away from that and I think that's just I mean unfortunately that's just normal I think it's human nature. Our brains are wired that way.
40:35.48
Bill Eckstrom
Um, man.
40:48.77
mvhuber
And and to go back to the conversation for coaches is it's the same for them right? It's the same for them. They want to feel comfortable. They want to be in control coaches and they want to be able to like do what makes you know what they feel is comfortable for them. They don't want to try new things. But I think what I would. Hypothesize and you have probably have a better sense of this than I do the ones who are curious about what it takes to get better are typically the best coaches meaning like I I want to know. What I could be doing better I want to know what I'm not doing well I want to understand what you're bill doing what Mike what you do I want to understand from all these people who know better than me in these subject matter areas like tell me what I could be doing better. Those are the coaches the the knick sabins of the world and the belllichicks these guys like. They're they're going out and they're trying to bring the best into their programs because they don't they know they don't know everything they know football but they don't know all these other things and I think the coaches who think they know everything or don't want to know or aren't curious are the ones that are going to flat line eventually.
41:49.93
Bill Eckstrom
Um.
41:54.99
Bill Eckstrom
Um, yeah I do agree and um, if we haven't studied the personality types of of those kinds of coaches but to your point when I think you know coast to home.
42:03.80
mvhuber
Um, yes.
42:11.10
Bill Eckstrom
Down the roads a guy by the name of John Cook who's the University Of Nebraska women's volleyball coach. He's the winningest coach in the country since I think 2000 or 2005 whenever he came but anyway um, there is a period of time.
42:18.70
mvhuber
Yep.
42:26.64
Bill Eckstrom
And he talks about it in his book Two thousand and thirteen fourteen ish of where his teams were not performing to the level he thought they should meaning that they were getting beat in the elite eight instead of making it to the final 4 right.
42:35.80
mvhuber
In.
42:42.46
mvhuber
Final 4 right.
42:46.20
Bill Eckstrom
But but they weren't getting there. Ah so he kind of stepped back away from his program and said hey I figured out the problem in the problems meet. Um the girls have changed They've evolved student athletes have evolve I haven't I still coach the exec somewhere I've always coached in shame on me. So if he brings in a retired navy seal and um and another friend of mine who's the sporscyclcos telling me about and had him have these guys spent like 2 years with them helping him understand his gaps. He said if I knew what they were I'd fix them.
43:15.60
mvhuber
Wow. Right here.
43:23.23
Bill Eckstrom
But I don't know so I need so I need to know I need to understand where my opportunities are you know since that time beginning in 2015 I think husker women's volleyballs only not made the final 4 twice some like that. So.
43:30.54
mvhuber
Um, ah.
43:36.31
mvhuber
Um, Wow Very cool.
43:42.50
Bill Eckstrom
Yeah, but those those people the inquisitive ones and and who are willing to to say I know I'm the problem and I also know I'm the solution. Yeah, they make they they make.
43:55.58
mvhuber
Um, yeah, yeah, well I that that I I but I love that let me just say I love that and I'm curious about John Cook I don't I've never heard of him I know.
44:00.91
Bill Eckstrom
For great coaches.
44:12.48
mvhuber
Little bit about women's volleyball in Nebraska and but I'm going to look into it more because I think that that's a great story and so as we wrap up I think it's a great segue to what I what I usually ask is the last question. Um and and and and it always it always is.
44:22.79
Bill Eckstrom
Okay.
44:28.77
mvhuber
Basically the same but it comes in different forms. So everybody gets the same one so in your case if you had to give 1 piece of advice to a coach or an a d who's out there listening about how they could best move their program forward or move their. Their own development forward. What would that piece of advice. Be.
44:45.83
Bill Eckstrom
Of I think 2 things of number 1 and you already you through through the question you answered it is you everybody wants their programs to get better right? Whether I'm a. Ah, freshman baseball coach or a division 1 volleyball coach you want to grow so number 1 it starts with you. Don't look at your players you go home and you look in the mirror and so what can I do better because.
45:13.11
mvhuber
Oh.
45:22.64
Bill Eckstrom
Everything from that point will trick along same with you Athletic director. What can I do better. Are you coaching your coaches. Are you giving your coaches an opportunity to get better. Are you helping? are you identifying what they're good at where their opportunities for growth are so. I Don't care what level you're at it begins with you number one then that another thing on top of that don't ever us underestimate the power of trust connections um too many coaches will tell you they. They they love their athletes and they do but they don't know how to show them they do and I use the line all the time you know, um I can't teach a coach or an a D how to care but I can teach you how to show you care.
46:18.45
Bill Eckstrom
And so I think the second point is to then be intentional about the connections and trust you create with the people on your teams.
46:23.10
mvhuber
Um.
46:29.90
mvhuber
That's great. So great way to end Bill. Thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast. It was great to talk to you I'm sure we could continue this conversation on for a while and maybe we'll have a chance to do it again in the future. But thank you so much for joining me.
46:39.17
Bill Eckstrom
Um, yeah Mike thank you very much. It's been fun.
46:44.21
mvhuber
Thank you take care.