Welcome to "The Freshman Foundation", a podcast that helps young athletes BE READY for every next step in the game of life.
How has Andrew Trimble, Founder & CEO of Kairos Sports Tech, gone from the rugby pitch to the CEO's office?
In this episode, we're honored to host Andrew Trimble, a former professional rugby player turned Founder and CEO of Kairos Sports Technology. From overcoming personal challenges to building a successful company, Andrew guides us through his interesting and valuable journey.
So what was your biggest takeaway from my conversation with Andrew?
My biggest takeaway is that the lessons learned on the sports field are not restricted to that realm; they transcend into the business world and beyond. Andrew's journey from overcoming personal hurdles such as shyness and self-doubt, to starting his own company, is a testament to the resilience and determination athletes embody. His approach in cultivating trust and accountability in his team lays the foundation for a thriving venture.
We're incredibly thankful to Andrew for sharing his journey and wisdom with The Freshman Foundation Community.
Learn more about Kairos Sports Technology at https://kairostech.io/. You can follow Andrew on Instagram @andrewtrimble14.
To BE READY for your next step in the game of life, visit https://michaelvhuber.com.
We look forward to welcoming you back soon for Episode 64.
00:01.19
mvhuber
Hey Andrew how's it going I'm doing really? well. It's great to see you again. Um, want to jump right in and maybe just have you talk a little bit about your background as an athlete a rugby player over in.
00:03.28
Andrew
I'm great how you getting on. Yeah.
00:17.91
mvhuber
In Ireland can you talk about kind of your journey. Um, as an athlete.
00:22.64
Andrew
Yeah, perfect. Um, thanks a lot for having me on. Obviously we met in in Toronto and we shared a few notes back then and um, yeah, but I was looking forward to to getting on the show and and um, kind of extending that chat. So um, yeah, my background is is rugby played. International ropeby for for 12 years we were I grew up in a rope family very much a rugby family I had ah I had a football annual a soccer annual premier league Daniel and my dad at 1 stage confiscated it and replaced it with an irish ro b book so that was more or less. The decision me I was an aobi family and I was going to play rugby and then fortunately for me I ended up being good at it so it would have been more frustrating if I had have had any football ability whatsoever. But yeah, so kind of traditional. Pathways of getting into to pro-rogby and in Ireland um, it's kind of it's a little bit more mixed now. But back then it would have been not exclusively schools but generally you come through the schools. There's a number of kind of rugby plan schools in Ulster my home province and um, yeah, kind of kicked on. When I was you know 16 seventeen I always had kind of long limbs and long hands and everybody kind of you know, used to make fun of me when I was um, a kid and then I just hoped I would grow into them and eventually did and then you know that kind of had a bit of athleticism I managed to to kick on play.
01:50.95
Andrew
O schools irish schools then went on to play under 21 stay in the academy and and um went on from there and like um like it like a lot of people I'm sure I just happened to play well at the right time you know, ah people say you're you're a maybe big, big big game player or you know you just happen to you know, 2 or 3 times. Are the big opportunities to perform and ipress I happened to play well at those occasions and ah kicked on there was ah ah a coach I was quite shy as a youngster and there was a coach at Ulster who kind of took me under his wing and gave me an opportunity to to kind of get brought into that environment. With a few of my heroes growing up, you know by guys who played for Australia played for like ah the the guy who captained the team he was I had a picture of him on on the wall whenever I was fifteen sixteen you know my heroes and um the coach kind of took me under his wing and said he he knew that.
02:37.55
mvhuber
A while.
02:46.80
Andrew
I Needed to experience that environment and and start to kind of be myself and be more comfortable in that environment so he brought me in.
04:33.70
Andrew
Ah, different story I'm good I'm good I'm looking forward to this thanks for having me on Michael.
04:54.38
Andrew
Yeah, no absolutely that um occasion in Toronto is a good opportunity. It's always a good opportunity to meet different people and different stakeholders and different people who are at the event for different reasons and um, actually it's probably been one of the things I've noticed about since I finished playing rugby professionally. It's A.<
05:59.85
mvhuber
Hey Andrew how are you doing? Yeah, it's great to see you again. We met in toronto at the leaders conference which was really my first time there was really a great event. Um, so so just tell me about.
06:02.55
Andrew
Um, annual or sticker book and he confiscated it one stage and replaced it with ah a rugby and Irish roggueby annual and at that stage I knew this isn't up for grabs. Um, we're having a rugby family and I was going to be a rogby player and fortunately for me um I was I was quite good at it and um, yeah, it allowed me to go on and.
06:17.50
mvhuber
Your background in sport.
06:22.90
Andrew
And kick on and I was always a ropey fan. It was always plan a for me, you know I kind of studied and stuff and I was interested in a few other things and but it was always rugby for me I always wanted to do that and I was lucky that that kind of dream came true for me. Um, and and gradually you know there's kind of traditional pathways into per-rugby and in in Ireland and it tends to typically be through the school system slightly less now and it used to be more so um, ah certainly whenever I was growing up and sixteen seventeen I kind of grew into quite a large. Um, uncoordinated frame as ah as a yeah kind of youngster and kind of grew into that and it was a bit of athleticism and I kind of kicked on and as I started to perform well I got more and more confident and started to perform well on the on the right occasions whenever the right coaches and selectors were were watching and.
07:10.10
mvhuber
Yeah, yeah.
07:13.55
Andrew
That allowed me to kick on and play for for Ireland Schools play for Ulster in Ireland under 20 ones and I got a development contract. There was a coach at Ulster the team that I played for my whole career who um, I'm really thankful to because I was quite quite a shy young fellow. He identified that and he he knew that I needed to be exposed to that environment from an early age I needed to get used to it I needed to find my feet and be myself in that environment and so he put me in the deep end probably earlier than I should have been um in there. Um by merit. Anyway. And um, he put me in there and it was the best thing for me because within um, you know a quicker kind of Turna ride I was able to be myself socially I was able to be myself. Um, with with ball in hand in terms of my performance and and what I was doing and en traininging everything I just settled in and find my rhythm quite quickly. I. played in the league for alster and then I played in the european cop for Ulster which was a step up and then I played in the Otton internationals when I was I just turned 21 for Ireland and um, all across the way. It was an amazing experience for me I was in an Ulster team that was captain by. You know my hero growing up. Um, David Humphriess and I had a picture of him on the wall when I was 15 um, and then I got to you know play against Australia the first game street in the deep end real high level international rogue beast straight up and I was playing number 13 for any of your listeners who aren't rogueby fans they still might.
08:44.17
Andrew
Um, but they might know the name and brown o driscoll um an irish shrubby legend one of the best um players that's ever played the guam and when you think of irish Roy think of brano driscoll um he was injured that autumn and I was playing 13 I I replaced the great Brownan O Driscoll and I was feeling the the pressure. So. It was. It was an amazing experience and yeah, kicking on kicked on from there and it certainly wasn't straight. Um, you know plain sealed in from there. There was a lot lot of ops and a lot of lot of dying a lot of injuries. A lot of difficulties. A lot of non-selection a lot of um, you know, success. Ah, a small bit of success towards the end of my career. But. It was an amazing time and it taught me a lot and a lot of that I'm probably channeling into life after rugby I think.
09:48.30
Andrew
I yeah I I'd say it was probably I got like kind of an increased kind of realization a few sort of realizations I can cope at this level and thrive at this level and in school. Um I loved schools rugby because it's it's the. But schools in under twenty ones ro be underage ro be is the best ro ever plays. It's guys your your age obviously and you have the same interests and it's the it's fun. It's absolutely fun. It turns professional and but gets a bit serious. It gets a bit intense and gets you know high levels of expectation and. Intensity and expectations from coaches and supporters and everything but at schools level. It's still It's got that and enough it's it's serious enough and to be highform but it's still fun and it's still lads playing with their mates that you went to school with and that's the pureness of of. Sport and um, so yeah, playing um irish schools or you know, kind of schools rubie in Ireland I definitely felt felt like have I got the ball in my hands I was gonna beat defenders I felt like I was gonna be dominant I felt like I was just confident always wanted the ball always wanted to to to thrive and.
10:54.54
mvhuber
Yeah I mean there's a lot of things that I want to ask you about because there's a lot there. Obviously you've had a really really long and robust career. So at what point did you know in like in your adolescence or ah in your life that you're like hey I'm pretty good.
10:59.75
Andrew
Kind of show what I was capable of doing It was a great feeling. Um, and then like like anything else. You know you're a big fish in a small pond and then once you go up a level then you start to realize oh this is not as easy. It was as it was a year ago. Um, so you have to kind of reinvent yourself and discover a way to differentiate and.
11:10.30
mvhuber
At rugby.
11:19.69
Andrew
Um, show what you're you're capable of there so I did that a couple of times and then once I kind of figured it out. Then yeah, you got okay I can I can cope here I can do well here. Um there's definitely you know moments in in my career personally where you know I felt like I was behind. You know I kind of kicked on with a level of athleticism and kind of natural ability and natural flair and then um, guys who are 3 4 5 years younger than you they kick on and then they go through that that purple patch and you have to you have to kind of you have to find something different I actually changed positions whenever I was. 21 22 and it was a new skill set and I had to kind of find my so find my feet again and think my way into a game rather than just ah, relying on natural ability. So yeah, there was a couple of kind of realizations along the way but in terms of um, personally what I wanted. It was always It was always. Rugby. It was all I always wanted to play professionally always wanted to play for Ireland I was a ropey fan growing up and yeah, that opportunity meant the world to me.
12:30.58
Andrew
I was um well I was twenty remember I have signed my first contract now anybody who's listening kind of they're familiar with with american sports. Um I mean what I was getting paid as ah as a professional.
12:43.78
mvhuber
Ah.
12:48.21
Andrew
Um, you know there's there's there was guys working at the shop getting paid more than me. But as far as I was concerned I was a professional and I had landed and I told all my friends I was a pro robi player. So but at twenty years twenty years old it was. It was a great opportunity for me and I was. Yeah, it was it was it was ah it was an opportunity to kick on and make a life um of this and make a career or something I loved.
13:25.60
Andrew
So um, the coach actually ended up. He got he got sacked from ah my team so he was there. He had a period of success for a couple of years and um and then a period where results didn't go our way. Supporters turned against him and he got he got sacked for 1 reason or other I'm not sure exactly what the politics were behind the scenes but he went elsewhere. He went to 1 other club and then moved on to um, Saracens in London his name is Mark Mccall um and now he's considered. He's got a.
13:43.41
mvhuber
Um, yeah, so so you met well I guess first question is when did you sign a contract with Ulster how old were you.
13:57.15
Andrew
Whole load of success with saracens 1 european cops premiships everything and um I think he would probably say that he had a tough period at Ulster probably learned a lot and then now I mean I think Ulster supporters are probably going why on earth. Do we let this guy go. He's one of the. Greatest coaches. There is out there and he may not be there and I'm not I'm not I don't know, but certainly there was certainly the raw ingredients of what he is nig and this is probably just an example of how um how he had a intuition be as a coach. Um, there. Certainly that was the skill set.
14:27.95
mvhuber
Sure.
14:34.24
Andrew
You know the story I'm describing here now he identified that I was shy he identified that I was kind of in my shell a little bit. It wasn't quite being myself I wasn't comfortable in that environment. Um and he I hate he. He told me a story and you said he he mentored me he didn't really mentor me. He just spotted this a bite me and made this decision on on my behalf.
14:35.74
mvhuber
Yeah, so you mentioned you know you had a coach who really took you under his wing mentored you so like at what point when you joined the club did that happen.
14:53.73
Andrew
And allowed me that opportunity but he um I think we were doing a workshop with the ireland under 20 s and he was brought in he was doing a small bit of coaching under 20 ones. It was at the time and he he spotted me just not not contributing to the group and he knew I had things to say but I wasn't saying that I wasn't back myself I wasn't. Um, I just wasn't exhibiting the confidence wasn't back on myself and I wasn't um yeah, just shown that confidence that he thought that I should have had a spo and he he said he just watched me and he just watched me just sit there and not not piping up whenever I should have been. And um, he identified that he needs to be in this environment more often. He needs to be here. He needs to be here every day so that he gets used to this so that he can start to be himself because we need him to be himself if he's going to thrive if he's going to kick on so yape he give me how a contract. The development contractor was kind of semi-professional contract. Um. At the time and that was ahead of my time I didn't deserve it now. I wasn't performing. Badly. It would have been in the mix for a couple of guys who would have got a contract but he gave me that because he thought I was underachieving I needed to be in the environment to get the best out of myself. What a brilliant bit of insight for him to spot that and within a couple of years I felt like i. Repaid that confidence by the time I repaid that confidence he was probably gone somewhere else I repaid it to to a different coach unfortunately from his perspective but um I thought that was a really interesting um experience my experience and I'm very very thankful um that he you know.
16:16.59
mvhuber
Um, okay.
16:27.80
Andrew
Made that decision on my behalf and allowed me the opportunity that I otherwise wouldn't have had okay.
16:47.85
Andrew
Yeah, he he seemed to he picked up things about me that I think whenever he mentioned them I would have acknowledged that I knew that about myself but I wouldn't have been really that self-aware and again this is a time. Everybody's self-aware now. Everybody's self-reflective everybody understands and is mindful and. That's just a language that didn't exist in in 2004 2005 you know, um, and yeah he I suppose I it it took me ah back then the culture and the environment was pretty old school. You know it was a little bit old-fashed um the opinion of everybody in the change room. Is actually the opinion of 1 alpha meal or maybe a couple of people who are kind of in that circle and very old-fashed reasonably unhealthy I would say but everybody had it and there's kind of different levels of of unhealthiness I suppose um, but you know that was an environment where it took me a long time to kind of find my feet.
17:36.54
mvhuber
Um.
17:44.86
Andrew
Find my confidence and find my voice and really back myself. Um, and I think that that that environment in rugby ging rooms or professional sport changing rooms has changed dramatically for the better even by the time I was finishing there were young fellows coming through characters different types of people from different types of backgrounds and.
17:53.44
mvhuber
Absolutely So so when he when that happened like how did it make you feel like what was the what was was there a transformation there for you knowing that he was sort of invested in sort of your development and spotting that maybe deficiency that you had to.
18:04.74
Andrew
Challenging people and it was just very very good to see you know the traditional alpha meal in the room wasn't necessarily the one call in the shot by the time I finished which was a really good place to be but um, but yeah, so it took me I'd say probably a buddy I didn't speak to anybody for the first six months you know I just.
18:12.64
mvhuber
Improve on.
18:22.96
Andrew
Took me a while I but I was shy and um I just took me a while to find my feet and come out of my my shell and when I did that you know it was um it was. It was very good for me very good for me personally to grow and very good for me. Um from ah from a rugby perspective to be able to.
18:31.19
mvhuber
Right.
18:39.45
Andrew
To be able to thrive and and be myself and fulfill potential.
18:55.74
mvhuber
Ah.
19:04.80
Andrew
Um, there were I identified things about myself I was I was I was shy I was also quite I was ah quite nervous I probably had a little bit of imposter syndrome on game night I always felt like I um, you know tonight's going to be the night everybody finds out that I've been lucky. Numerous times to get me into this position. You know these are this sort of sort of demons and I'm sure this happens over and over again. Lots of people who I speak to experience something similar. So for me, um, acknowledging that and coming up with with tools to to manage that and tools to go out and um and ah ultimately I suppose. Um, and impress my game and and be myself out there and and almost like force behaviors that allowed me to be the best version of myself. Um, just it kind of standard support psychology and standard kind of preparation and routines and.
19:45.82
mvhuber
Um, wow.
19:57.44
Andrew
Um, yeah, ultimately I never I never enjoyed game day always thought there's more to lose than there is to guen. Um, you know I was talking earlier on about the the pureness of playing schools rogby with your metes playing for fun Once you get term professional that that kind of goes out the window a little bit. You know you you.
20:05.11
mvhuber
Yeah, so were there aside from having that shyness and and ultimately working through it and and developing and sort of moving past it were there any other challenges that you that you could sort of identify that were were big ones in that process of going through the the system.
20:17.12
Andrew
You play for a job. You're expected to perform. There's an intensity and expectation around that and sometimes it's hard to um, it's hard to I suppose Fulfill what's expected and from you So I I always? um yeah I was always nervous about that.
20:24.41
mvhuber
As you were sort of growing through you know through the club.
20:33.83
Andrew
So yeah, that's probably I'm sure they're they're connected. You know my shyness as a young fella and um and struggling with the the expectation on and the nerves around game night.
20:48.95
mvhuber
Um.
21:39.43
Andrew
Yeah I did I um, there was um and again this would have been in back in the days whenever it wouldn't have been normal really? Um, I'm talking about it was in the dark age as you know it was fifteen years ago I suppose and yeah, yeah, and um, yeah, there were definitely. Um, there was one fell came on tour and I kind of eventually got to the point where I I was a little bit skeptical as well. Um I I naturally find a groove and I naturally find coping mechanisms and and ways to just to convince myself or remind myself how good I could be and.
22:08.14
mvhuber
Yeah I don't think any of that is is uncommon regardless of of geography Sport um developmental level I I think for a lot of athletes. The norm is to feel that way right? You know like I don't belong or if if I don't perform.
22:14.84
Andrew
Convince myself to be excited about performance. Not daunted by performance and I remember myself and a teammate um used to say to each other be brief just before Kickoff be brief out there call for the ball get the ball in your hands make sure take the fers on. Don't shift the ball into.
22:25.55
mvhuber
There's sort of a worst kind of worst case what if right? you're always sort of worried about that. But I think you talk about Sports Psychology I think ultimately regardless of where you're at like you do have a choice mindset-wise to sort of you know accept the situation you're in and try to make the most out of it and I think.
22:31.82
Andrew
Someone else's hounds who's in no better position than you are on my dad constantly telling me back yourself. You have to back yourself. So um, yeah, there's there's There's definitely the you know little coping mechanisms you develop yourself and then from speaking to to a couple of people one was.
22:42.37
mvhuber
For a lot of athletes looking back myself included you know I think we all put probably more pressure on ourselves than we needed to but without the guidance from somebody to help you sort of put things into perspective a lot of times you're sort of left to fend for yourself. Did you ever have access to sports psychology services to mental coaches.
22:50.30
Andrew
Just ah, not just ah, he wasn't I mean he wasn't a sports psychologist. He was a video analysis Analyst Sorry and um and he he just knew he just a rugby nerd like he absolutely knew his Irish rugby inside I Knew all everything like all the strengths of all the different wingers and um and he knew what I was good at and he knew how to.
23:00.86
mvhuber
That maybe helped you with it while you were playing.
23:08.68
Andrew
Get the best out of me. Um, so yeah, there's a number of kind of cues there but it was that was more from ah a coaching perspective and then the sports psychologist. Um I identified that in team meetings. You know how you get like a coach would say you know ask a rhetorical. What seems a little bit like a rhetorical question but it's actually not.
23:14.40
mvhuber
Big difference.
23:28.36
Andrew
Rhetorical question. He's ah he's asking for either an obvious answer or an answer that some people should know and um, there was a number of different times and meetings I find myself. He's asking something and I'm go is that obvious like I know the answer to I know the answer that question I don't want to say. Answer a rhetorical question. You just look stupid in front of your front of your midst. Um, but it wasn't rhetorical and it actually wasn't as obvious as I thought it was and it turns out I actually I you know, tactically and strategically I knew the messages he was trying to deliver so I understood the Keym very well. And I just sort of realized why am I always worried about what people think or worried about you know and I explained this to the sports psychologist and he said just say something just say something you know and um I had seen guys from other teams just saying stuff.
24:11.92
mvhuber
Um.
24:23.62
Andrew
And getting kind of um, currying favor with coaches and getting you know, just being well received an end but I was smarter than not and I could see and I could contribute more value than some of the guys as well and I was just frustrated himself that. They would say something like I was going to say that and that Idiot just took my took my answer you know.
25:08.17
mvhuber
Um, then.
25:08.38
Andrew
Next.
25:33.59
mvhuber
Um, thank.
25:34.79
Andrew
Um.
25:40.98
Andrew
And. Yeah.
26:04.95
mvhuber
Right? Yeah I mean but I think you you raise a really important point and in in terms of the value of working with somebody who's in the sports psychology profession because I think because so many athletes tend to be in their head.
26:06.76
Andrew
Yeah, and and and it's I always worried about what my teammates thought that was my my biggest thing and I remember um I'm sure we'll get all into this but there was kind of a purple patch at the end of my career and I felt like I I didn't quite fulfill potential up until I turned 29 and I had. Season of my life. You know I had like a couple of years where everything just aligned perfectly and I really understood what me and me tick and the other side of this is nothing meant more to me than than my teammate said to me you had a blinder tonight things went really? well you know congratulations and hogs and you know high fives and.
26:24.91
mvhuber
And they're afraid to make a mistake that they don't speak up because they don't want to look stupid right? or whatever you want to call it when you talk to somebody who's in the mental performance field like myself. What I find is a lot of athletes sense relief because they can speak freely.
26:43.37
Andrew
Nothing meant as much to me, not family, not journalists, not the coach. Not anybody apart from the guys in the pitch with me. It always meant more to me than anything else what they thought but but then the problem with that. Not all well and good all wholesome, but the problem with that is if they thought I was an idiot. It was the most.
26:44.11
mvhuber
And they're actually getting practice in terms of speaking up in front of somebody they can trust in most cases and then the person feeds back like myself can feedback perspective like what if you answer the question that way. What's the worst thing that's going to happen when someone else says what's the worst thing else can that. What's the worst thing that's going to happen when someone else says it to you. It's like oh that makes complete sense when you say it to yourself. It's like no the worst thing that's going to happen is going to be I'm gonna get inna get sacked right? like because I don't want to. They're gonna cut me because I going to seem seem like a dummy or I'm Goingnna speak up, you know I'm saying so like having that relationship with somebody that you completely trust.
27:02.81
Andrew
Devastating thing ever and I did um I got more comfortable after those kind of 1 on ones and those challenging conversations with a sports psychologist I did you know find my voice and find an ability just to to say so how I definitely did let myself die once or twice but to your point what was the worst could happen.
27:19.83
mvhuber
Who also doesn't control. You know your playing time your the personnel is also a huge factor because you're always worried about what your coach is going to think of you and how's that going to affect my my time on the field.
27:21.52
Andrew
Um, you know you look a bit stupid for a minute or 2 but people forget about that. You know, no one's no one's telling those stories now at least I haven't heard anybody telling the story about me saying something stupid at a team meeting. You know.
27:44.54
Andrew
Um.
28:05.39
Andrew
Um.
28:07.39
mvhuber
A.
28:12.49
Andrew
Ah.
28:18.28
Andrew
Yeah, we we we think we are this that we think we're the end of the Universe. We think we think it's a truman show. We think like everybody here. They're all going to remember every stupid thing I've done and you're right The the humbling element of this the lesson we can learn is we're forgettable. People don't really care about us as much as we care about us. Sure.
28:54.41
mvhuber
Right? well well I mean there's 2 points there for me 1 is nobody really cares that much about what you do right? We think that others care way more about us than than they really do right? I think that's in any walk of life. Forget about right? That's 1 thing. The other thing is too the the question I'll always ask. An athlete is is like would you ever talk to a teammate the way you talk to yourself and invariably the answer is no meaning even if you look stupid or you make a mistake or you have ah a terrible game. You're going to be harder on yourself than they are. Right? They're probably going to come up and Pat you on the back and say hey get them next time. It's all right? and you're thinking that you know they're going to. They're going to excommunicate you and that's not really the way it works in most cases. Maybe once in a while but it's not It's not it right? But we we convince ourself that that's what's going to happen.
29:37.62
Andrew
Ah, actually the the time between starting to think this is coming to an end and it coming to an end was very very short. Yeah, and um I so retirement for me was um I looked forward to it. Um.
29:45.91
mvhuber
The right.
29:55.16
Andrew
Ah, but by the time I I started to realize I might not have much of an option here. It was the only option I wanted Anyway, Um, so I had an extra year my contract and um I went to our guy at my team who knew well and I said listen um you know I'm kind of dropping down the Packck in order here a little bit.
30:05.63
mvhuber
Well I mean listen and and and there's a couple of things in there that I want to draw because I think it's really important right? because really what you've described is you know listen athletes The most elite athletes have a large but healthy ego right? you need to right? Otherwise it's just a hobby It doesn't It's just um for the.
30:14.60
Andrew
There's a couple of things I want to do outside of ropepe. Um, what say we you know come up with something that's going to work I'll get out of here early and um, you know financially Whatever let's have a look and see if we can come up with something that works and he goes ah he goes great brilliant and part of me was like ah ah.
30:23.28
mvhuber
Purely for the love of it right? You have to have an ego to be competitive and you've got to be really good right? So like that fuels the athlete but it can also work against the athlete and then ultimately what you said at the end there's really important and maybe it kind of transitions a conversation a bit is like unfortunately.
30:31.72
Andrew
Kind of wanted you to argue with me. Yeah, didn't want it to be that easy. Um, so that yeah that was kind of confirmation and everybody's happy came up with something that worked and um and the relief for me, you know I had it was a tough. It was a tough kind of last certainly last year
30:41.71
mvhuber
Everyone is replaceable and everybody is going to retire right? and so talk about that right? Obviously you went through a really long career I mean I'm sure most people don't play as long as you played but at what point did you start to know hey maybe this is coming.
30:51.80
Andrew
Anyway I wasn't playing much rogby. It was a little injured in bits and pieces any roia was playing wasn't performing. It wasn't really reflecting what I leaving the legacy I wanted to and um, yeah, it just I kind of fell out of love with with rogby and for me I mentioned that that purple patch and I finished when I was 33 and I had that purple patch when it was.
31:00.40
mvhuber
To an end.
31:10.90
mvhuber
Um, really.
31:11.18
Andrew
29 30 31 and then very soon after I'd say I was I was in my prime um, really by eighteen months before I decided to finish and that's how quickly it happened now I know some people would probably think come to the conclusion that maybe that's a reflection. Maybe. You did have the ability to get back there and you just didn't have I didn't have the stick ability or I didn't I didn't want to dig deep but I didn't have the fight and that there's an element of truth to that I didn't have the fight had fought a number of times been at kind of rock bottom injuries way down the peck in order and I had fought 2 or 3 times to come back. And get my performances back where they needed to be or what reflected were where I should be I just didn't have I didn't have it in me to fight 1 more time at the age of 33 and um I I was happy with that. But I did I did get some criticism.
31:56.33
mvhuber
Ah, that was too easy. Ah.
32:06.36
Andrew
Um, from from a teammate A very honest teammate that I know very well and he thought I should have stuck at it. There was new coach coming the following season I could have got back there but I just didn't want it I didn't want it anymore and and I was I was looking for was excited about other stuff as well. So that's where I was when I finished so.
33:21.21
mvhuber
And.
33:33.71
Andrew
I had I had a few ideas and a few thoughts but I didn't have a clear. This is the direction I Want to go? Um, but I regardless of what I did I was excited about doing something different I um for a couple of reasons I had mentioned to you about that that you know I.
33:48.58
mvhuber
Ah, but ah, but I think you know it it sounds like right? you're you were ready right? The the motivation wasn't there to continue to put in the the the amount of work which I'm sure was you know extensive to continue to stay right? like you sort of made up your mind and I think.
33:51.56
Andrew
I felt like I fulfilled potential late in the game had I not had that period where I fulfilled potential 2014 I was in the be won the 6 nations. Um I was the irish be player of the year um I and then we went on we won in. Um.
34:06.28
mvhuber
That's probably the biggest thing that I see with athletes who are faced with retirement the difference between someone who chooses to get out on their own terms and someone who's forced out and it sounds like you I don't know we'll we'll get into this ah it does I don't know if you had a specific plan or not.
34:10.93
Andrew
South Africa for the first time we won. We beat the old blacks in Chicago for the first time. Um and we beat um Australia at home and so South africa New Zealand and Australia 1 calendar a year hadn't been known before it was a few things I was part of and I had.
34:22.91
mvhuber
But like just just knowing like hey it was time for me to move on even if I've got the physical ability left if I don't have the desire like it's going to be really hard to be successful to put the work in whereas a lot of athletes stay too long or they try to overcome this stuff and then when they get out.
34:27.97
Andrew
Being part of ah triple crowns you recall whenever in the 6 nations. You know it's Ireland Scotland in the wheels and you have to win all 3 games to um to run win the triple crown I'd been part of a couple of teams that won those but I was a passenger in those teams you know I felt like I was I happened to be a part of it but I didn't contribute to it or i.
34:39.40
mvhuber
They don't know what to do with themselves and that leads to a lot of other challenges like you know mental health and you know addiction and all these other things that you know athletes who are forced out you know into retirement they they don't know how to cope. So at that point did you have a plan in terms of what you wanted to do post rugby career.
34:47.65
Andrew
Didn't play as big a role as I wanted to and with those other with those ones that I was mentioning. He was a part of it I deserved to be there I contributed to it I was a part of that effort. Um, and um, that made me feel the most um, amazing sense of achievement because it took me a long time to get to it that.
35:02.75
mvhuber
Um, okay.
35:07.11
Andrew
I just felt incredible I just felt like I'd fulfilled potential and I think having had that you know a few years later being able to retire just knowing it's a relief at least I've fulfilled my potential I haven't left anything out there. Um I couldve done more but I'm I'm pleased with what I've done. And that allowed me to move on and transition in something different and I was excited about something different anyway and I was etc but it changed a scenery I changed your environment and yeah I was excited about it. So.
35:38.75
mvhuber
Wow.
36:13.92
Andrew
Yeah, it's really weird. It's it's like um, it's like you just discover this whole whole universe and you just just discover this whole version of life that you hadn't experienced before even you know, um, just working ah working in an office and time getting the train commuting and. Eating whatever I wanted you know, having weekends to myself and um, you know kids were ah you know are still at you know at a good stage and getting to hang out with them and have the crack with them and have fun and you know just not have um, just like I just remember we used to play Friday night with with a club and then. All Saturday you'd be wrecked like you'd be just beaten up like you've been in a car crash every single weekend you play. That's the feeling and just something just as trivial as not feeling like shit every every weekend you know, just feeling feeling good feeling physically good and um, having energy to do things and um.
37:00.10
mvhuber
So ah I'll go back to what you had mentioned very early in the podcast sort of that idea that that singular focus is something that really can help an elite athlete right? Everything is directed in into the performance and sort of you're almost, you're in this isolation.
37:11.24
Andrew
Yeah, and and then ultimately not not feeling kind of the dread of having to go in and lift weights and hit a score that's on a scoreboard in the gym on Monday morning and um, having done your review and then kind of going in if things aren't going well there's no worse environment one day morning than you know, crisis meetings and reviewing.
37:17.94
mvhuber
You know, sort of bubble of the club and performance and then you get out of it and then there's like this whole new world which like you maybe not, You're not ready for it. But it's really can be really exciting. So can you talk about that like when you sort of stepped out and you started to look for the next thing to do like what was that like how did you feel when you.
37:30.20
Andrew
You know Bob performance the weekend just all that anxiety and stress and I was just going I'm I'm excited. There's a certain amount of anxiety and stress about getting it getting a new job and upskilling when you're in your mid 30 s and you've got a family to look after you know that comes with its own level of anxiety but it's different.
37:36.86
mvhuber
Left and then you started looking for. Well, what's my next move.
37:49.37
mvhuber
Are.
37:49.49
Andrew
Um, and yeah, ultimately you know the the startup and getting getting into kairots which um, you know we were quite excited about and a lot of the the principles of Kairos The the communication app and for for pro teams a lot of the principles of what we were looking to implement there and the value we're looking to add in there was. Was based on what I experienced in that environment. How I understood that high performance environment. How I knew athletes wanted to be communicated to and how they didn't want to be communicated to so I just had a rich um, ah, kind of experience of that. There's a lot of value in that and I could I could channel that ultimately into a new product. A new challenge.
38:21.95
mvhuber
Um.
38:27.43
Andrew
Um, and I had to opskill and you know dramatically Upskill I had to learn how to Use. Um software technology had to learn how to use a crm and used have to you know, raise money speak to investors you know sell a product all of this stuff and done any of this stuff on a clue what it was doing. And you know for me I feel really strongly that athletes. Um, certainly have the wrong ingredients. Um, if you think about Athletes. You know you get dropped. You know you either get selected or dropped you either fit or you're injured your highs and lows all that stuff is just resilience and then.
38:56.65
mvhuber
Are.
39:04.63
Andrew
The game changes every 3 four or five years and you have to change you change positions something happens you pick up an injury something happens. You have to reinvent yourself just rediscover yourself. You have to be innovative on the pitch you have to be you have to understand what makes you tick you have to find ways socially to get on with with teammates to.
39:10.10
mvhuber
Absolutely yes.
39:22.69
Andrew
You know, even just to speak to speak to media all this sort of stuff. It's all raw ingredients of someone who can transition to business. But that's just raw ingredients you you don't have a clue about how business works and yeah, it's that balance That's um, it's it's challenging, but it's exciting as well.
40:06.58
mvhuber
A.
40:37.53
Andrew
First.
41:02.50
mvhuber
Yeah, that's that's really on an unintentionally that is probably been one of the biggest themes that's come out of this podcast that wasn't my intention when I started I didn't think about entrepreneurship as a component of this conversation. But.
41:02.54
Andrew
Absolutely yeah, so I think um, the but what the the raw ingredients and what I was able to transition the the value that I had was I I understood the problems I Intimately understood the problems and I was frustrated by the problems communication problems and.
41:19.92
mvhuber
What I've come to learn is that a lot of former athletes have the raw ingredients to use your phrase to be entrepreneurs because of the resilience the ability to deal with adversity. The the fact that you're putting every ounce of time energy and and even money finances into certain in certain cases into this.
41:21.60
Andrew
In high performance environments for years. You know we um, just which I find it unusual that the communication space. Um in in pro teams is just so so dry I find it interesting that we walked. Used to walk down into the gym and you'd see 5 pieces of technology immediately. You know there's a force plate at norboard gym aware all this all this stuff and then there's all these kind of nutrition um shakers and all this you know like 10 different um supplements and your nutrition.
41:39.92
mvhuber
Objective this end goal which is not guaranteed as an athlete right? like somebody always has your fate in their hands to a large degree right? You could be the best rugby player in the world. But if somebody doesn't agree with your opinion. You're not going to have a spot on the roster right? so.
41:52.14
Andrew
They've ticked that box. They tick the the s and c the the performance box and but upstairs in the in the fizzio room someone rubs against the whiteboard and they wipe off 10 names and everybody just loses their mind because no one knows what time their appointments are tomorrow or.
41:57.17
mvhuber
Ultimately, you're taking all these risks emotionally and otherwise and there's no guarantee and that's the same thing with entrepreneurship or you get into it. You're like I don't know what I'm doing but I know I want to do this I Want to solve this problem which is sounds like the genesis of how kairo started which was like hey I I think I can build a better mouse trap for how.
42:07.66
Andrew
You know people are in like 15 different whatsapp groups and they exit a group after every away game and or there's a pdf sent out an email you know from six months ago with some you know code of conduct or some policy or some principle that guys are supposed to be accountable for it doesn't exist. It's in an email from six months ago
42:16.47
mvhuber
Organizations and athletes can communicate and so I'm going to apply what I've learned in that space and figure out how to do it which is basically what you describe by all these elements of running a business which are there's so many right? you learn the hard way.
42:24.78
Andrew
Guys don't It's not they're not listening not paying attention. So communication space is so clumsy I Thought that's a space that we can solve some problems there especially when you think of high performance athletes. The typical profile is single-minded focus dot nextke that next session don't distract athletes with multiple group chats and.
42:37.80
mvhuber
Right.
42:44.27
Andrew
You know sending Google google drive links or huddle links or Zoom links or ever don't use 10 different mechanisms through 5 different departments to speak to athletes just put it right in front of them and just make it easy for them because all you want from that athlete is to be able to perform score goals score touchdowns score tries. Just make it easy for them to do that. Just give them the information make it one click rather than 10 clicks and they will own that more. They'll be more accountable for that. So ultimately, that's what we we were. We're achieving with kairos.
43:18.64
Andrew
Um, we ah, we launched the company 2018 I think we raised some investment some angels friends and family um institution in Belfast again that was all. New to me didn't know how to manage a cap table manage an investment round all that sort of stuff dilution hadn't a clue equity. Don't know you know I'd studied finance. So I understood kind of a lot of principles theory principles. But um, yes, we launched the company. We got a bit of support and we got. Um, some smart engineers to to build. You know our vision and what we wanted to achieve and we launched the system in um, January Twenty one into english soccer um, by now 2 two and a half years later we've got half the premier league use our system. Um, senior teams full academies. Um senior women's teams across a whole kind of range of of um of setups there. But yeah, we've um, we've managed to hit the ground running. We've added some value straight away and then that network that Sports Network Football Network Network in the Uk is really connected guys lead teams and we get opportunities elsewhere and. Yeah, we're trying to to launch the system in the in the states. That's why I saw you at the at the event and getting into those networks and trying to to share. You know how much how much value we can offer offer teams ultimately, right.
44:36.50
mvhuber
So so how long has the company been in existence.
45:02.91
Andrew
So um, I'd say one of the one of the most exciting things but 1 of the things that I was I had no no skill set for was it was managing a team and um I suppose managing engineers managing you know a marketing team seal team. All this kind of.
45:07.97
mvhuber
Right.
45:21.80
Andrew
You know all of this is It's just all so also new to me. Um, we're very very lucky that we've got an amazing team and I think the the culture culture is something I kind of really understand but no one really understands culture. Nobody really understands how that happens. And hopefully the kind of conclusion we're coming to is that myself and my my cofounder. Hopefully hopefully the conclusion I'm coming to is accurate that we're good people and we like the company of good people. Um, we have um, ah levels of kind of accountability and expectation from each other and what we we expect.
45:55.42
mvhuber
And.
45:57.65
Andrew
Ah, each other to deliver and that kind of is the seed for the the kind of culture that we've developed. Um, we very rarely um, blue staff members because people love what we're doing. They're really excited with a lot of engineers that are sports fans football fans.
46:00.46
mvhuber
Yeah, so so I'm gonna I I'm gonna ask you probably to answer a hard question but of all the things that you had to learn or all the challenges that you faced in sort of starting the business and sort of from 2018 to today five years
46:14.23
Andrew
And um, they love They just love the story and they love being part of something that's quite exciting. Um, so it's it's just suppose that that is all foreign to me get more and more comfortable with it and I'm more and more excited about it and and in a similar way I described. Um you know whenever I had.
46:19.14
mvhuber
Like what was the biggest but if you could pick one thing. What was the biggest challenge for you as as a professional to run and sort of grow a business.
46:33.29
Andrew
Season of my life playing rogby and um, you know the best thing about it was sharing it with the people who their opinion meant the most to me whenever we get big wins and we get signed big deals. Not big deals whenever we sign deals with big high profile teams football teams baseball teams um sharing that with the team.
46:45.14
mvhuber
Ah.
46:52.20
Andrew
Is the most amazing thing and us just enjoying that together and celebrating that together is is um, one of the most exciting things. 1 of the most amazing things about about the business.
47:53.16
Andrew
Absolutely, it's it's trust I Yeah there was an expectation from my teammates when I played I'm going to do this I need you to do this Otherwise we're both going to look stupid and the same thing is true now. So again people I think sometimes people get carried away with the.
48:10.29
mvhuber
Um, yeah.
48:11.17
Andrew
You know the the principles in sport and how they transfer to to business. But certainly there's there's there's numerous principles that we've um, kind of stumbled across that that still stand. Um, why my business partner makes fun of me because.
48:23.31
mvhuber
Yeah, and I think you know the word I don't think he used it. But I think the word that comes to mind when when I was listening to you is trust right? It's the same as any high performing athletic team which is if there's not complete trust amongst the members of that team whether it's coaching management athletes.
48:26.81
Andrew
Back in the day there'd be like a business principle and he would explain to me by a sporting analogy. It got to the point where if he any he would say just to wind me up. He would say it's a little bit like in rugby when and I just knew I was like shut up shut. We're not having this conversation again.
48:43.00
mvhuber
Right? If you don't have that trust it's going to be really hard to operate as a cohesive unit and it same goes for a business which that is really hard right when you're when you're when you've got a team of people whether it's 10 people or one hundred people a thousand people everyone's going to have a divergent.
48:53.23
Andrew
Um, ah we we want to work with as many um, high performance teams as possible and we want to work with as many kind of um, big logos as possible big teams we want we feel like we have have something that's going to dramatically enhance the environment. So.
48:59.24
mvhuber
Interest right? Maybe it's just a job. Maybe it's I'm here to make money and then go like to keep everybody on the same mission and the same page is really really hard and if but if you could do that and everyone's pulling in that direction and you're able to to facilitate that you probably have the the so you.
49:10.74
Andrew
The the practical version of of Kairos um, but the practical benefit is time where's goingnna see if staff members time we're going to play see if players time because they're got. They're not Goingnna have to be looking around for information. It's goingnna be right there in their hand there and then so we're gonna look literally see them ours a week staff members ares a week
49:16.15
mvhuber
Plant the de seeds for something really really special.
49:25.41
mvhuber
And.
49:30.17
Andrew
But that's not that sexy. It's you know it's quite good. We're receiving them time but it's not It's not the set big sexy story that we're telling the big sexy story is and we heard this feedback from the early days Kara removes the lazy questions from athletes and you'll know what I mean by. Easy questions. It's it's athletes who who can find ah information out somewhere it sits somewhere buried in their phone but they just ask a lazy question what time the boss again tomorrow or what color jerseys are we in blue or red. You know this kind of stuff stuff that they can find out somewhere else. So. If they don't ask those lazy questions anymore then they are more accountable for the information that's in their app. The information is more accessible. They can get it easily. They know where it is if they're more accountable for it. They own it more and if they're if they're exhibiting more ownership over the information that's being shared then we're actually.
50:10.75
mvhuber
So ah, what's so ultimately, what's your vision for Kairos. What's the vision for the business.
50:20.97
Andrew
Demonstrating more conscientious athletes a cultural impact. So Ultimately we're we're challenging and impacting the culture of the teams that we're working with Yes, we're saving them time and there's a business case around time safe for expensive athletes and staff members but the really cool story is that we're allowing athletes. Understand themselves better understand what makes them tick and then be more bought into the plan that the coaches implement. Um I Always think an unhealthy high performance environment is whenever coaches Tell athletes What to do whenever athletes are part of that story and they contribute and they communicate back and forth and they.
50:44.40
mvhuber
Um.
50:58.11
Andrew
Come up with a plan together. They're way more bought into that. So hopefully ultimately, that's what Kairos can do.
51:56.10
mvhuber
Sure.
52:10.39
Andrew
Yeah I mean if I if I go to my kids and say um, here's what we're going to do. There's very little chance that we're going to do that because they've got their own ideas. Um, there's occasions whenever I have to try and trick them into saying what I want them to say to be fair, but um.
52:26.65
mvhuber
So so that's I love that you sort of finished on that point because that's something that's kind of a a real deep interest of mine in Sports Psychology which is the concept of creating a self self-determined motivation for the athlete right? The sense.
52:28.16
Andrew
You know I Just think people in general if they feel like they're contributing to a plan. They're a part of the plan. It's their plan they own it way more and they execute better on it.
52:45.28
mvhuber
Perception that the athlete has control over what happens and that they're involved and they have a say rather than being told what to do all the time because then it creates this sort of resentment or this like you know lack of accountability because someone else is either telling them what to do and it's frustrating or it's disappointing or making them angry or they're just. Tuning out because they they don't have the incentive to actually take responsibility Either way right? like giving them a so stake in that situation where they have to manage their time is is going to be a good thing and it's going to spill over ah into other areas like performance into you know.
53:07.50
Andrew
Um, and this it so is this kind of like a punchy finish because I've ah might I've got something a little bit long-winded um and the the practical advice I would give is and my experience at this was I studied I did. On undergrad theology I did a postrowd management and I did a master's in finance. So I I studied loads I wish I'd done more practical I got more practical experience I wish it. Um you you use my network. Yeah, all of a sudden whenever you stop playing Roby people stop wanting to speak to you.
53:23.34
mvhuber
How they carry themselves outside of the club. All those things right now you're creating to your point a culture of involvement of of collaboration versus it being you know top down management.
53:40.77
Andrew
That is your sweet spot whenever you're playing. You know there's fans of the game working in businesses and in time and they want to spend time with you. That's the time to get in front of them and say listen I don't know what I want to do but like what you do can you sit down with me. Can you spend some time with me can I shadow you practically you'll learn way more.
53:55.24
mvhuber
Yes.
53:58.71
Andrew
Through that through getting into the workplace and and and and shadowing people that you're interested in what they're doing so practically. Yeah, get practical experience the other one. The other piece of advice I would give is I'm based on my experience. Um I am.
54:02.62
mvhuber
Definitely so so as we wrap up the the final question I'll ask is is the final question I ask everybody on this podcast. Um, so given your experiences like what's the 1 piece of advice that you might give to an athlete who's.
54:15.26
Andrew
Find it hard to back myself as we as we were discussing earlier on. It was a key skill that I had to develop on the pitch to be able to back myself and I eventually back myself I find something that worked I understood myself and I managed to get to the point where I was able to execute well enough to reflect the level of performance that I expected from myself. Um.
54:19.95
mvhuber
Looking to the future right? They they they know that they're sort of their time is coming ah and they're looking to make that move to the next phase of life like what's the piece of advice. You'd give to that to that person.
54:35.60
Andrew
I also I I studied whenever I was telling you there about um studying I didn't have any finance background I kind of coerced my way into getting on the course managed to do it and did really well eventually and I had no experience of it. But I knew at that stage there's 2 or 3 times 1 other time I was um.
54:35.55
mvhuber
Go go for it. No no go for it.
54:56.39
Andrew
Had captain of the club. A co-captain actually with one of the other guys obviously and um had no experience with captaining a team leading a team. Um, we didn't have a successful season but I know personally I developed a load that year I knew I learned more about myself I understood how to. Um, see of my voice I knew how to communicate key messages and to deliver to the team and hopefully get the best of the team. We didn't have ah a vintage season by any means but I learned a lot about myself and I learned that I was capable of leading and being a captain. So again, those 3 things. Um, things that I'm not necessarily that good at but I can start something new and back myself and if I back myself I can I can deliver and deliver. Um deliver and value. So same thing I had to really harness that mindset whenever I finished so my ultimately long way around saying my advice is.
55:42.99
mvhuber
Um.
55:48.48
Andrew
Absolutely back yourself go out there and back yourself say yes to everything take on any opportunities because you don't know what you might stumble across you might discover a skill that you've just been sitting on or you haven't realized you're good at this because you've just been playing sport for 10 years back yourself take on any opportunity because you might discover something. And I know hopefully that's where you get the best of yourself.
56:29.90
Andrew
Good mom Michael thanks a lot for having me on enjoyed that.
57:36.28
mvhuber
That's great I mean ah I appreciate you sharing all of your story your insight your knowledge I think your background is exactly who we're speaking to on the podcast. So Andrew thank you for coming on and spend a little bit of time to talk to me. Um, it was great to see you again and hopefully we can do it again in the future.
57:58.12
mvhuber
Um, thank you.