What does the high school-to-college baseball transition actually look like — from the inside out? In this conversation, I sit down with Dan Galati and Trevor Powers, co-founders of Backside Groundballs Media and former college coaches, to talk about what they've learned traveling to college programs across the country — and what it really takes for young players to make it at the next level. Many players arrive on campus thinking they're ready. They've put in the work, they've been recruited, they've heard how good they are. But Dan and Trevor have been inside these programs. They've sat in the film rooms, watched practice, and talked with the coaches shaping the next generation of college baseball players — and what they've seen tells a different story. We discuss what the best college programs are actually teaching, why compete and baseball IQ matter more than ever, and what freshmen consistently struggle with when they step on campus for the first time. Dan and Trevor also share their honest take on the transfer portal, what it means to truly be ready to play at the next level, and what separates the players who make it from the ones who don't. If you're a high school player with college aspirations — or a parent trying to help your athlete navigate what's ahead — this episode is an honest, inside look at what college baseball is really asking of you.
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
00:00 – Introduction
01:15 – How Dan and Trevor met — high school teammates to business partners
03:30 – How Backside Groundballs Media started during COVID
06:00 – Their experience as college coaches and why they left
09:00 – Transitioning from coaching to media
12:00 – What they've learned traveling to college programs
18:30 – The analytics vs. old-school baseball debate
22:30 – Why compete and baseball IQ are coming back
26:00 – Leadership lessons from the best college coaches
30:00 – What great programs are actually teaching
36:30 – The biggest challenges freshmen face on campus
40:00 – The weight room, durability, and the physical demands of college baseball
42:00 – Adjusting to college life — freedom, stress, and identity
46:00 – Coach-player communication and how players can advocate for themselves
51:00 – The "de-recruiting" effect and managing expectations
54:00 – The transfer portal — what it's doing well and what it's costing players
59:00 – Do freshmen have unrealistic expectations about playing time?
01:03:00 – What it actually takes to have a chance at professional baseball
01:10:00 – Final takeaways: being tough and vulnerable, and leading with humility
🧠 SHOW NOTES
In Episode 91, I sit down with Dan Galati and Trevor Powers — former college coaches and co-founders of Backside Groundballs Media — to talk about what the high school-to-college transition in baseball actually looks like for the players living it.
Dan and Trevor have done something unique. They've traveled to college programs across the country, sat in film sessions, watched practices, and had real conversations with the coaches building these programs from the inside. What they've seen has shaped how they think about player development — and what they believe young athletes are missing.
We discuss:
Why compete and baseball IQ have become the great differentiators at the college level.
What the best college coaches are actually teaching — and how they build culture.
The biggest physical and mental challenges freshmen face when they arrive on campus.
Why the transition from "recruited athlete" to "one of the guys" is harder than players expect.
How the transfer portal is changing the landscape — and what it might be costing players developmentally.
What it truly takes to have a shot at playing beyond college.
Dan and Trevor also share what they've taken away from conversations with some of the top coaches in college baseball — including a lesson from Penn State's Mike Gambino that Dan says changed how he thinks about what it means to be both tough and vulnerable at the same time.
If you've ever wondered what separates the players who thrive at the college level from the ones who struggle — or how young athletes can put themselves in the best position to succeed — this episode gives you a clear, honest, and experienced perspective.
🤝 CONNECT WITH DAN GALATI & TREVOR POWERS
🌐 Backside Groundballs Media: https://backsidegbmedia.beehiiv.com/
📷 Instagram: @backsidegroundballsmedia
X: @BacksideGB
Michael Huber (00:01.289)
Dan, Trevor, what's up fellas?
Trevor (00:04.758)
doing.
DAN (00:05.854)
Thanks for having us.
Michael Huber (00:06.793)
Yeah, man, it's great to have you on. So Dan and Trevor had me on their podcast twice already. I feel like a regular. So I felt like I wanted to have them on and learn more about kind of their business, what they do in the media business, talking about player development on the baseball side. It's really great stuff if you haven't checked it out on YouTube. But let's let's get into that to start. Like, so how did you guys get into this together?
Trevor (00:31.874)
Yeah, Dan and I go way back. actually played this gets lost in the the backside ground balls. Lore a lot of times is Dan and I actually played high school baseball together. So we came full circle after both of our playing careers had ended and we were both on staff at Goldie Beacon College. I actually played my last year of eligibility there and Dan was there as a coach. And then we both kind of started our coaching career at that point at Goldie Beacon. And then really the business came about.
So many people miss this as well as in 2020 during COVID Dan and I thought we were smart enough to talk into a podcast. So we started recording in our parents' basements and doing it remote and just to kill the time of the pandemic when we were all on lockdown. And as we walked away from the coaching industry, after a couple of years there, we kind of just tried to rekindle it and it's expanded into what it is now, which is much more elaborate than just us sitting at a computer and having conversations.
Michael Huber (01:29.525)
Well, I started this podcast in 2020 as well. I guess, you know, it's a pretty common theme. So when you started the podcast, right, what was it about initially? Has it like morphed over time?
DAN (01:42.165)
Oh my gosh, it's had like, I feel like it's changed every time me and Trevor every couple of months for a while there, we were like, let's do this, let's do that. It started out actually, believe it or not, were talking, we used to talk about Major League Baseball because that's what we kind of both felt most comfortable with obviously at the time we were both huge Major League Baseball fans. We had the experience with the game, obviously playing and coaching in college. We felt like we could talk about it, evaluate what we saw.
Michael Huber (01:59.273)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (02:09.096)
we felt like there wasn't a great space for that. Like I'm not a big fan of a ton of the Major League Baseball content that's out there. So we're like, let's get in with this. then, you know, it was kind of a thing during COVID. And then when we got into coaching, weren't, you know, when we started back up everybody, we weren't doing it anymore. And then when we both left coaching the same year, we were like, let's start this back up. And then we were doing Major League Baseball again. And then after a while, we were like, I we actually have connections in college baseball. Let's start doing college baseball stuff, which then
we were kind of doing box score stuff and talking about the teams and following college baseball closer than we ever had because we weren't in it finally. And then that morphed into instead of people hearing us talk, wouldn't it be cool if we talked to coaches who actually were like a lot smarter than us and we have those connections and I still, don't know if Trevor remembers the conversation. I remember where I was when we first had the idea of taking it on the road to campuses. I was actually driving.
on 85 in North Carolina, eating up Trevor, me and Trevor like to eat up our road trips by talking on the phone to each other a lot of times. So we were doing that and like we started talking about what if we got to campuses and that's kind of where it started to take off when we started to do that.
Michael Huber (03:06.868)
Thanks.
Michael Huber (03:15.484)
Okay. Well, there's so many directions to go from there. But I love that you guys were high school teammates because, you know, some of my best friends to this day, and I'm a lot older than you guys are still my best friends from high school baseball. And the stories that get told have nothing to do with baseball. They have everything to do with the dumb shit that happened in the dugout on the bus. You know, just the best stuff. And it's not like, we won or lost that. Or I struck out there. It was like,
One of my favorite times was one of my best friends was playing third base in our county championship game. And he booted a ground ball basically. And he said the sun was in his eyes, but we always joked to this day that he was looking at his girlfriend, he was making googly eyes at her, right? So like 30 years later, the joke is still like, you were looking at Tara in the stands and like we all laugh about it, right? And we got beaten the county championship. Like that was a big deal.
DAN (03:57.535)
you
you
Michael Huber (04:09.928)
No one gives a shit about that anymore. They only care about like, hey, let's make fun of your friend, you know, when we're 50 years old. you know, like you guys are like, you know, like what was it like playing together in high school?
Trevor (04:10.286)
Yeah.
Trevor (04:21.918)
I'm sure it we were so I was younger. So Dan's actually my brother's age So Dan's two years older than me. So and this is not to give him his flowers too frequently I don't feel like we are very affectionate a friendship but like he was a huge mentor to me as a younger guy playing up on varsity and him being a senior and a leader and I just learned so much from him in that like time and he kind of took me under
Michael Huber (04:27.773)
Okay.
Michael Huber (04:41.396)
Hmm.
Trevor (04:47.392)
under his wing with a bunch of the other seniors as a guy who obviously knew my brother as well, because they were in the same class. But that always stood out to me. And that's why when I circle back to wanting to play that last year of eligibility at Goldie Beacon, it was so easy for me to reach out to Dan, because like, even though we hadn't talked other than just in passing over the couple of the years since he had graduated, went on to college, it was like one of those things where he was always like kind of a mentor to me. And it was just like easy to rekindle the relationship once that day came.
Michael Huber (04:56.841)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (05:05.33)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (05:17.556)
Gotcha, so the follow-up has to be what was it like to play for Dan as a coach?
Trevor (05:22.996)
I was in such a weird scenario. It was great, but like I was like, I don't even know if I'd call myself as a player as much of a liaison.
DAN (05:25.492)
You
Trevor (05:32.591)
because I was so like old compared to the younger guys on the team and I hung out with Dan and a lot of the older guys and I felt like I was a part of the coaching staff but they still gave me a uniform and let me like sometimes go out and play the field and stuff like that. So I wouldn't say I have a great experience but he was always fine to me and more fun than actually helping me do anything because my successful days were over.
Michael Huber (05:38.953)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (05:42.704)
You
DAN (05:58.957)
I was I was responsible for entering ending your pitching career though It just gets masked by the fact that kovat hit a couple days later So no one knows it but we needed us trevor was like a quasi He's right. I mean he he wasn't unfortunately on that team team was pretty good and trevor at that point he had dealt with what did you have in the fall? You were you missed the entire fall with some mono
Trevor (06:02.744)
That's true.
Trevor (06:19.5)
Yeah, like an enlarged spleen or something like that. Yeah, it wasn't great.
Michael Huber (06:22.134)
wow.
DAN (06:22.195)
Yeah, so like it was so yeah, so he missed the entire so he was behind the eight ball and like he wasn't playing but he was just such a great team guy which part of the the thing I will say like the the story and that is that when I got to Goldie Beacon we were in our third year as a program so they had had two years and so it was it was like a building they were still building and which they've built themselves into just like one of the best Division two programs on the East Coast especially in that region
Michael Huber (06:42.547)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (06:48.468)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (06:51.673)
and so you know I spent my first year there and we weren't very good which you know we were fine better you know what as what we were supposed to be expected but I felt like we needed some some culture guys some guys who had you know won in college baseball some guys who had had success who had been there and seen other programs and done it and you know I
we brought in a guy named Brian McCourt who I was teammates with at Sheppard University when I played, because I knew he was one of my best friends still is. And so I knew that he knew how to go about things. He could show guys, just be a leader by example. And then Trevor, same thing. It was like, well, here's a guy who I've known him since high school. I know exactly who he is. I know exactly how he's going to be. He's only going to be a positive no matter what his role is. that was a big reason for us.
getting him even if his playing time wasn't great. But I will say we were losing the game pretty bad right before COVID hit and canceled the season. And we needed a sacrificial lamb and we sent Trevor out there on the mound and he blew out his arm, So even if this season had continued, I don't think Trevor would have been around.
Michael Huber (07:51.9)
my goodness.
Trevor (07:54.699)
unofficially blew out my arm. don't want I never went to the doctor for it.
Michael Huber (07:57.758)
Never went under the knife just to hung it up.
DAN (08:01.855)
Yeah. So my fault maybe.
Michael Huber (08:04.725)
It was probably building up over some times. It just happened to be coincidental. But more seriously, so was the move out of coaching, like, were you guys kind of cold to what you're doing? Or was it like dissatisfaction with the profession and you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. Let's go find something else to do. Or was like, this thing is more like what I think I want to do. I mean, I'm just curious about your experiences as coaches and ultimately want to hear more about how that influences what you're doing now.
DAN (08:06.171)
You
Trevor (08:35.704)
Yeah, I think it's actually weird that both of our scenarios are kind of similar. And I think it lends a lot to at least my perception on Dan and I would assume Dan's perception on me. We both left because we cared more about our wives than our own careers. Right. My wife was starting medical school at the time. And and that's why we moved to North Carolina. you know, coaching industry and really most industries, it's all about who you know. And of course, I would have loved to move down to North Carolina and picked up the phone. And Justin Hare wanted me on as a volunteer assistant. I would have walked right onto that.
Michael Huber (08:50.985)
Much help.
Trevor (09:05.698)
field at Campbell 10 minutes from my house the next day but that wasn't an option for us in the card so at that point it was an easy decision and and to just walk away and then it was more of like you know what's our skill set and we felt like we're pretty smart baseball people or at least we knew a lot of people and asked the right questions and that's what kind of pivoted us into the media side of things is it was just the best way to maximize both of our passions in life which is our family and then obviously baseball.
Michael Huber (09:08.085)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (09:34.678)
Gotcha. So real life sort of was you had to make some decisions about how to do what it is you wanted to do. But in a way that would work for everybody, which is, which is real. mean, listen, I was never like I was never a college coach. The closest thing that I ever was, I was a high school coach for two years when I was going through my mental performance coach training. I was working on staff for free as a 40 something year old guy. I'm like, like the guys I coach with, like I have one guy who's still a friend of mine who coached basketball. Like he worked.
like 80 hours a week and he's making like three grand. And like he would drive kids home, it was a private school, he would drive them home, he'd text them, he'd be there at seven a.m. on a Saturday morning and opening up the gym and like he was like a father figure. Like he wasn't getting paid nearly enough to do what he was doing but he did it because he loved it, right? It's a hard job, right? So like that lifestyle seems like it's not the easiest thing to be able to do. There's a lot of sacrifices that have to be made.
DAN (10:31.987)
Yeah, when I try and like explain to my wife's family or anything like why I left or what it was like, it's it's it's not glamorous as glamorous as people think. You know, most people who aren't huge sports fans or huge baseball fans, their perception of college athletics is like Alabama football and.
That is the point zero zero zero one percent of what college athletics are for most people, right? The reality a lot of times the majority they're not playing at that level and not in that sport either, which has even more money than Alabama baseball or more funding or more perks, I guess you would say. It's not, you know, the most glamorous. And that's not to say that I didn't like it. And that's why I left. But it just came to a situation where it was like, well, I have a full time job that's paying the bills.
Michael Huber (11:06.591)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (11:17.085)
I have my passion, which is coaching college baseball, which wasn't at a point in my career yet where it was enough to live off of, not even close. And then, you know, I had my wife who I was getting ready to marry, who I liked spending time with and didn't get to see at all. And it was like, you know, because I'm leaving the house before 5 a.m. every day to get to my my desk job to then go to practice. And then even when you get home after seven o'clock, you know, you're if you're doing it the way that I wanted to do it, which was be all in.
Michael Huber (11:23.252)
No, no,
DAN (11:44.821)
You're making recruiting calls, you're texting recruits, you're watching video of bullpens, you're game planning if you're in season, you're making practice plans. So then I'm not even present at home and it just got to a point where seeing kind of the stress that it added to our relationship, was like, well, I have to make a decision here. One of these things has to go. And it was like, which one? And it's like, well, not the person I'm gonna marry for sure. And it's like,
Michael Huber (11:53.3)
Right.
DAN (12:10.739)
Can I really justify cutting the job that is paying the bills for the job that wouldn't pay any bills, essentially? And that was just the unfortunate choice. And it took me, if I'm being honest, it took me a couple of years to kind of get over it. Right. Like I missed it for a long time and because I loved it. And that's what I had wanted to do for a really long time. And it's still, you know, I love what Trevor and I do now. But I don't know if a job will teach me as much about like hard work and like just kind of
Michael Huber (12:25.119)
Sure.
Michael Huber (12:30.069)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (12:40.573)
learning how to take losses and still get out of bed and go to work the next day, more than that job will. Like any job, I don't know if I could ever do something that's gonna teach me kind of those life lessons.
Michael Huber (12:51.135)
Yeah, and I don't want to necessarily make this about sort of the things that I'm doing, but I think that's one of the things I try to tell kids, teach them, is that you need to have empathy for your coaches, right? Like, they're working really hard, they got a family. If you're a head coach, you've got all sorts of responsibilities that you don't even see. And you don't like your coach and you don't like the way he's doing things and you don't like his decisions. But like there's a person behind that who's got a family to feed, right? So again,
You know, you can feel however you want to feel as a player, but if you be the victim or you blame the coach for your lot in life, the only person you're hurting there is yourself, right? And when you hear a story like, what you guys are saying, it's like, it's not an easy life. And I don't think kids realize that they just think, well, coaches are great guys, a happy guy, right? He coaches baseball. What could be better? Well, your paycheck could probably be better and not being on the road all the time could be better and all those things. So,
DAN (13:43.797)
You
Michael Huber (13:48.897)
But I guess ultimately, how do you guys, I know you have different segments of your content, right? You have baseball development, you've got the facility tour side of it, you've got some recruiting stuff, how has that sort of evolved and is there a focus or, let me ask it a different way, who's your target audience? Or maybe there's one for each of those segments of content.
Trevor (14:15.437)
Yeah, I would say there's probably one for each of those segments of content, but they do overlap to a large extent and we try to be, you know, adaptable for our fans. But really, it's just people that want to learn the game of baseball in an educationally presented way that's not in your face, shoving it down your throat.
Michael Huber (14:19.67)
Hmm.
Michael Huber (14:24.235)
Mm-hmm.
Trevor (14:33.591)
in a way where we try to make the coaches the storytellers, right? Where Dan or whoever's on camera is the one kind of just guiding through the process rather than inserting himself into the conversation too frequently and just allowing, know, coaches to have the platform that we have to educate listeners, right? And whether that's players who just want to learn from a division one pitching coach about what they're looking for so they can be better in their, you know, week to week preparation or whether it's a young coach like Dan and I was, you know,
Michael Huber (14:38.39)
Yeah.
Trevor (15:03.505)
When we were working our desk jobs, were both, you know, crushing podcasts to no end, taking notes until we, we ripped through the paper and we're just trying to, you know, help anybody who comes across our content, learn something, or if it's a parent that just wants to know more, right? Like, how can I learn from these coaches to help my son or daughter and make the right decisions in their career and advance as much as possible? So it's not exactly one target demographic. It's probably just be like baseball fans, players and coaches.
Michael Huber (15:13.142)
And
Trevor (15:33.585)
but it's definitely one of those that we just want to make sure we're taking it from the lens of educating the masses rather than inserting our perspectives and opinions in each of the content pieces we produce.
Michael Huber (15:45.599)
Okay, that sounds great. I mean, it's very similar to the way I look at the world, right? We talked about this before we hit record being curious and sort of asking the questions to learn from other people versus telling other people what we think are the right answers, which I think is great. So like, how has it been received by the coaches? You've had the chance to work with an interview through the process. Like, what's their sort of feedback to you guys? Or do you get any feedback? Or do they just sort of go through the process of interviewing with you and then you move on?
DAN (16:15.605)
the coach, right, Trev? mean, we've certainly had a couple who just go through the process. Now some of them are extremely busy and you understand why, and they're gracious enough to give us any time and we'll take it. But the majority of them, I think we've been very lucky so far. Knock on wood here. A lot of them have been very appreciative. We've gotten a ton of positive feedback. We've been really lucky because I think
You know, and I'll even add to Trev's last answer there, like in my mind a little bit, like the target audience question, like me, I'm my I'm our target audience, like still to this day. And I think that's what makes me have so much fun doing it is the fact that like it's still pinched me to be standing there and like learning from Matt Hobbs, because as Trevor said, like when I was a young coach, I tried to find every word Matt Hobbs ever said publicly and implement it. Right. So like the fact that like I'm being able to now ask him questions.
to learn things like some of those questions are just simply my curiosity. I just want to know what his thoughts are. Not that I'm probably ever going to be able to implement them again, but it's like, man, you know, when I was a coach, I kind of wondered about this. I'll ask. I want to know from someone like him how he handles certain things. And so I think because that's our goal and I think Trevor feels the same way, I think we've been very lucky that like a lot of the feedback we've gotten is positive and we've been able to build, at least in my mind, some really impactful relationships.
and people that I respect so much. just think it's so cool that we go in there and we don't upset them in any way and they appreciate our work.
Michael Huber (17:52.821)
Yeah.
Trevor (17:53.392)
If you don't mind, I'll even build off to the fact that the amount of time we spend on camera compared to off camera with these coaches.
Dan and I take pride in spending half of our time building the relationship with the coaches because now I think there is a director side is like we try to break down that initial coach speak barrier, which we do a really good job of doing. So by the time we click record, there's a level of comfort between Dan or whoever's interviewing and the coach. So they get a little bit more into the depths of what we're trying to get out of our content piece. But I will say again, we just spend so much time. I mean, we talked off record about Dan Hefner
and we spent 45 minutes to an hour 15, both standing around the home plate in the hot Dallas, Texas heat on turf, learning leadership from him and legitimately like asking questions in an earnest way that we're like, why do you guys do this? How do you do that? How do you do this? And him being gracious with his time is the only reason we were still able to get 40 minutes on record after the fact there.
Michael Huber (18:31.711)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (18:41.545)
Yes.
Trevor (18:56.579)
but we spend so much time trying to pick these coaches' brains and build a relationship outside. Like if we just barged in, stuck a camera, hooked them up with a microphone, clicked record, did our stuff, I don't think our content would be 40 to 50 % as good as what it is because we do take a lot of pride in building those relationships. And then I think coaches appreciate that in the long run and it's why we've been back to places. It's why we could call a lot of these coaches in the country right now and probably get in their doors within the next couple weeks.
Michael Huber (18:59.509)
you
Michael Huber (19:24.553)
Yeah, and I think what you said a little bit earlier, Trevor, is, you know, let the coaches tell the story, which I think is so impactful, right? That idea that we're just asking the questions they're going to tell us in their own words. And, you know, obviously, if you listen to Matt Hobbs talk, there's some element of high level baseball vocabulary where if you have no familiarity with the sport, you might be like, what's he talking about? But if you know anything about baseball, he's able to communicate some
DAN (19:50.036)
you
Michael Huber (19:52.842)
very, very central concepts about coaching baseball in a very understandable way, which is really great. In fact, I'll share this with you guys, and I don't know the end, the punchline of this story, but I'm gonna guess I do, which is I was on a meeting with one of my baseball players who pitches in college, and we were talking on Sunday night, our regular Sunday night session, and he brought up, Matt Hobbs talks about racing to two strikes.
DAN (20:20.596)
you
Michael Huber (20:20.649)
Right. And like, had, I'd heard that from your stuff and then you literally brought it up. I'm like, there's no way he didn't hear it, you know, on your, on your content. But he's like, yeah, he's like, I'm working on racing to two strikes. And I'm like, that's awesome. You know? And then like that idea, because this is a kid who struggled with this command, right? So if he can really get good at being fearless in the zone, you know, and feel like it's okay to get. Pieced up a little bit for the, for the trade-off of, Hey, I'm going to be.
Trevor (20:23.534)
Yeah.
DAN (20:27.156)
you
Trevor (20:28.944)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (20:50.537)
getting ahead more often, even if I take one on the chin every now and then. Like you said, I think Daniel was saying there about getting like, know, scarred up, right? Scarred over, scabbed up, right? Like, hey, it takes some of those hits, bleed a little bit, but now you're like, I'm not worried about losing that. I think that that's like, that kind of, you know, that kind of content is just so valuable because it resonates with young players. Like they can get it without it feeling too high level and too like overwhelming or feel like too like preachy.
DAN (21:19.282)
Yeah, I mean, it's so it's it's so crucial. One, that's awesome, because I would if we can help one person like any time we get a story like that, or we've had a couple of coaches at places we've shown up to who have brought up videos we had done in the past. And it's like, that's that's what we're trying to do. Like, that's that's a win to us. But yeah, like for college pitchers, especially like the racing to two strikes and like hearing Matt Hobbs say that, like, we set up down the middle in the fall. If you come to a fall game at the University of Arkansas, we're going to our catchers aren't going to move.
Michael Huber (21:28.895)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (21:35.412)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (21:45.844)
Yes.
DAN (21:48.467)
like hitting is really hard. And I remember being a college pitcher and and you know, the early stages of my career being scared of the strike zone a little bit because these guys are older than you and they're big and strong and they're good. But it's like you have to remember that like so are you. That's why you're there. And like you have to be fearless and understand that. OK, if I give up a couple of hits, it's not the end of the world. And I think that's like, you know, hearing from some of these pitching coaches who can, like you said, translate it and make it so digestible.
kind of do it in a motivational way to it's just so awesome. Like if you love baseball, it gets you fired up. Like Trevor and I will be texting back and forth like about, know, hearing, you know, coach Hobbs say something. We're like, how awesome is that? Like I want to go out there. Trevor texted me the other day. He was like, he makes me want to go out there and Chuck 72 up at the plate. Yeah. Like just let's go do it.
Michael Huber (22:27.957)
Yes.
Michael Huber (22:31.638)
Bye.
Trevor (22:33.456)
You
Michael Huber (22:36.598)
Yes, he does. But I want to stay there, Dan, what you said. So I'm curious, like, I'm curious about your opinion. Well, for you specifically as a pitcher, was it the jump to college? Or was it do you feel like that's the way you were coached leading up to that point and you had to have it coached out of you?
DAN (22:55.284)
No, for me, it was was certainly internal pressures I put on myself. Just the jump to college and the you know, I think we talked about this on our podcast. I don't know if it was we're before we recording or during but like these kids, you know, I was a guy who wore my ERA around like it was tattooed to my forehead. And so making the jump to college where I'm an undersized 18 year old and here comes a 22 year old man, especially in the fall, like some of my teammates, it's like
Michael Huber (22:58.869)
Okay.
Michael Huber (23:07.172)
He
Michael Huber (23:11.872)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
DAN (23:22.17)
I have no business being here and there's a little bit of that imposter syndrome. And I think for a lot of guys, Trevor and I will go watch a college baseball game. it's a lot of fun because from the stands, it's so easy when you're not in the dugout or on the field. Coaching and playing is the easiest thing to do when you're sitting in the stands. So we enjoy it. But so many times you'll see, we were at a game last weekend and a kid was just dealing and he had just great stuff that day.
and you know, a kid turns on a ball and rips a single to left and I just look at Trevor and I'm like, yeah, okay. You know, the other dugouts getting all fired up and I'm like, yeah, great. Now go do that three or four more times against his stuff. The only way you score here is if he gives you a free pass and just like, you know, if you can see and this kid that was pitching was a senior and he did just go right back in the zone. Like I don't care. My stuff's too good today. And you know, those are the guys who are really successful, you know, and like, but at the same time, I completely understand the mental
Michael Huber (24:03.658)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (24:13.76)
Yes.
DAN (24:19.956)
hurdle that it is of not being you know, like you can't be afraid of that when the kid turns on it, and they're swinging from the rafters in the other dugout because they finally got a base hit. You have to be able to like kind of stay within yourself and get right back in the zone. And to me, those are the most bad ass guys that you see in college baseball. Like are the ones who get punched in the mouth and spit the blood out and they're like, I want more and just jump right back in the zone. Yeah.
Michael Huber (24:42.809)
Yeah. But that's a bad, that's something we talked about when we recorded on your podcast. And I think it is something that's coming up now. We're recording towards the end of February, right? That idea about competing, right? Like, let's go compete. All right, you got me. Like, I'm going to get you versus, oh, I gave up a hit. Now what? Right. That like, don't give up a walk or don't give up another hit or don't throw a wild pitch or what's going to happen if like versus like, okay, you won that one, but you're not going to win the next one. Like,
that competitive mindset, think, I don't know, don't have enough data, right? Like we talked about being humble as a coach, like, I don't know enough to say one way or the other, but I think competitiveness is something that kids nowadays, I'm sound like the old man, struggle with to a certain extent, and maybe because it's of social media, and maybe because it's because of data, and maybe it's because of all this other pressure that maybe I certainly didn't have, and maybe even you guys didn't have as much.
But do you think that's true or do you think it's just the nature of the beast of a baseball player who, you know, it's still a very mental game. like you said, your ERA was tattooed on your forehead. maybe it's just like confidence is fragile in a game like baseball. I mean, do you think it's trending one way or the other? Or you think it's just like it's always been?
Trevor (26:02.616)
I think the biggest shift in the mental game of baseball was when stats became accessible online, right? Like whenever in college baseball that day started, I think is when mental hurdles became a huge obstacle. And then even when Dan and I were in high school, max preps was a thing. And now you have game, game changer, whatever it is at the youth level where mom and dad are counting stats and we're keeping stats from T ball on.
Michael Huber (26:13.035)
Mm-hmm.
Trevor (26:27.832)
So whenever the day changed that stats became accessible online, I think that that became the banner of what made a good player versus a bad player.
rather than the holistic nature of being a good teammate or producing defensively or running the base as well or whatever multitude of ways it was to be a good baseball player. The day that stats like, like again, Dan and I joke about it all the time, but it's the truest thing in the world when stats are online and you're at a school and you think you are a baseball player, you go to X college because you're a baseball player. You think you walk into your English 101 class and that pretty girl that you got a crush on, you think she knows that you went three for nine last week.
Michael Huber (26:40.287)
I'm out.
Trevor (27:07.442)
or that you hit a bomb in the midweek or that you let up eight runs in three innings in the midweek. Like everything in between, you think that everybody in that class knows and you're literally walking around campus with your stats on your shirt and everybody can see it. And you know, it's the most absurd thing in the world, but I think it's one of the things that, you know, is the hardest for baseball players to break. And then that's not even to mention on the competitive side, the data and analytics of pitching.
Michael Huber (27:35.274)
Yeah.
Trevor (27:35.832)
That was post Dan and I's playing career, but obviously coaching career. It was pretty evident and it was just like kids would go like Dan could speak more.
But you'd have guys in indoor sessions in January and they would get rocked or walk the world and then come out and ask what their average Vila was and it's like you sucked like there's no like you sucked today like I don't care what your average Vila was you sucked and then you have your other dudes that are just full of piss and vinegar and will go out there and compete and throw 82 mile per hour sinkers under guys hands and with no fear and it's like in college baseball I think specifically like guys can really get away with C grade stuff
Michael Huber (27:59.415)
Yeah.
Trevor (28:15.183)
if they have A plus compete and understanding of like how to go out there and just really maximize what they are compared to the guy with A plus stuff but's worried about his vert, V-low, how much RPMs he has, if he can do X, Y, and Z that he's able to do in a confined indoor setting in December when his buddies are around.
Michael Huber (28:32.759)
Right. Oh, so there's a bunch of stuff that I could go with there, but I would take it one step further on what you said about going to class and the people around you not knowing what you're doing. Your teammates don't even give a shit, right? They might know what your stats are, but you think they care and they don't care. We know what they care about. They care about themselves, right? I talk to kids about this all the time. Like you think everybody's watching you like it's the spotlight effect. You're it's you're not the center of the universe. Yeah, maybe you're struggling now. Maybe someone makes a comment under their breath and they give you a hard time.
But really all they're worried about is themselves. So let's just focus on the process, right? Do I believe that what I'm doing is working and if it's not, let's solve the problem. But if it is, let's keep doing it. Even if the balls aren't dropping, even if, you know, I'm giving up a blooper or an infield hit or whatever, like let's just stick to the process because it feels good. I'm executing, I'm making the pitches I want to make. And it doesn't matter if it says, I mean,
Again, Matt Hobbs said this in one of the things, you know, one of the videos you guys did with him, is velocity does matter, right? And we, we don't have to get into that, but at the end of the day, what really matters is getting guys out, you know, maybe that varies by level, but ultimately the job of a pitcher is to get guys out. So when you have your C stuff on a given day, if you can still get guys out, that's the compete. Right. And I think that's the thing that I think with the data, some of the attention goes to the outputs.
and it gets pulled away from the compete.
DAN (30:06.312)
Yeah, think I truly because this is something that I've brought up a lot recently when we've gone on trips with these coaches is I think that and I do I don't know if I'm qualified to speak on this enough, but I think the compete thing is like a combination of a couple of things. One, I do think we have a problem at the youth sports level and even the high school level on how we're teaching compete like so much to me.
Michael Huber (30:13.239)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (30:31.294)
kids don't know how to compete as much anymore. I will say that I feel like and it was even during our day a little bit like I remember being in the middle of some of it and I think social media plays a factor in that because so much of it now is like, you know, you see a kid hit a double and it's you know, the dugout it's less about hey good job, our guy, you know, to your teammate that just hit a double and it's more at the pitcher you suck. And I think that's because you see stuff on social media and like
we've lost some of that and I think also some of that comes from like the youth level. We're not teaching kids how to compete properly or what it means because you could be really competitive and respectful at the same time. that's it's possible but you don't go viral for that and I think so you know kids aren't seeing that enough and we're not teaching it well enough and then I also think that you know to Trev's point and your point a little bit like the data the data race we've lost baseball IQ a little bit for a while there.
Michael Huber (31:01.591)
Mm.
Michael Huber (31:06.081)
Yes.
DAN (31:22.584)
And I remember being at a minor league game a couple years ago and like watching the product on the minor league field and going we have a problem here and this is about to be our next you know wave of big league talent and Talking to you know, because these college coaches are so good. They always are finding you know they want to find victories in the margins and I think they started to see that a little bit and the pendulum is definitely swinging back to like teaching baseball and like you know, we there was a there was a long stretch of time there where I feel like in our baseball, you
Michael Huber (31:45.462)
Yes.
DAN (31:51.839)
training, practicing the youth level, especially like we got so obsessed with the one on one showdown of pitcher versus hitter that like we forgot there was a bunch of different aspects of the game, right? Like you can bring value by being a great fielder base running, you know, and you know, to Trevor's point, like if you have see stuff, but know the baseball IQ, know situations and our control of yourself and know how to compete right now, you're a valuable asset.
because there's still this wave of kids who they were born in kind of a lab in one-on-one cage sessions and where we're taking a swing and all we're doing is looking up at the hit tracks or the track man or whatever. And it's like, there's just so many. So I think we're gonna swing back hopefully is my hope where we can blend the two together.
Michael Huber (32:37.143)
But I think we saw that in the World Series. Like, you watch the Blue Jays do that, right? The Blue Jays were playing competitive baseball. They were taking extra bases. They were hitting the ball behind runners. They were bunting. They were playing baseball the way that, you know, old school, like, small ball. But they were playing baseball in a way that was competitive. It wasn't like, don't care what it looks like, we just want to win, right? And I think that it does seem like it's starting to swing back at the Major League level where it's like, okay, we overdid it with the analytics.
We're teaching everything instructionally through the analytics lens and we're getting a ton of swing and miss. We're not, and we're not winning in the playoffs because we're still doing the same things. We're not playing with baseball IQ. So like, what are some of the other, go ahead Dan, I mean I can see you.
DAN (33:20.126)
Sorry, just, and I think what's important is like we can have both and so long in the baseball community, it's been like you're either team analytics, new school or your team old school where like Greg Maddox, no one will ever be Greg Maddox again. And it's like, well, we can be both. Like we can, can, we can, you can hit the ball out of the ballpark and still know how to field your position and run the bases and still know how to compete. It's just, we have to understand.
Michael Huber (33:24.748)
Yes.
Michael Huber (33:30.87)
Right?
Michael Huber (33:37.814)
Yes.
DAN (33:47.335)
when it is time to be worried about our development and when it is time to worry about our induced vertical break and when it is time to worry about competing. And that's what I think you see and the coaches that we talk to that are at the top levels understand that and have such a firm grasp on that of, hey, like there is individual individual development, you know, sessions that we have in times to be focused on all this stuff. And then there's times, you know, now it's time to be a baseball player, go out there, compete, learn the game.
Learn how to base run learn how to field your position It's possible and I think the coaches at the highest level are getting too close to that
Michael Huber (34:24.983)
What do you think, Trevor?
Trevor (34:26.743)
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with Dan there more, right? Especially at, you know, we talked to one of the schools that comes to mind is Richmond and Richmond does about as good of a job as anybody at this, their classroom sessions. And we were flies on the wall in the fall, in the thick of it. So I'm not going to say that other programs that we've been around don't do this, but they coach Norman and coach Aoki, they both talked in detail about how important it was to teach the game and go beyond.
Michael Huber (34:39.056)
huh.
Trevor (34:53.433)
you know, how they run the bases and how that gets them from four runs to six or seven to 10 and how that can be the difference between a conference series win and a conference series lost. And, you know, coach Norman said one thing too that really stood out to me was like having other teams be exhausted after they're done playing you. And I think that's one of the coolest thing as a, as a coach who was lucky enough to be at a program that made other teams exhausted to coach against you. It's one of those things that I do have a special spot in my heart for. And I
think that that's a program that really stood out to me and how they're going about those things. And then again, it's not, you know, I think the big thing and what you see at the top programs, right? It's like,
Arkansas does those things too at a really high level. Coach Hobbs is about, you know, as new school in terms of his mind as it gets, but he's an old school dude. And the fact that it's going to be like, here's my best stuff right over the middle of the plate. We're not going to give away free passes. We're going to throw your best pitch as most as possible right down the middle. Right. And, and it is cool to see that that is like Dan said, a pendulum swinging back. And I think it does typically it starts at major league baseball.
Michael Huber (35:38.487)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (35:51.703)
Right.
Michael Huber (36:02.999)
Right.
Trevor (36:03.344)
and wants people that starts to trickle down. again, even from the major league baseball sense of like, we can't just have nine of the same guys in the lineup. Even if we know that Power and Homers are the best way to score runs, if it's nine guys that can only hit Homers and a couple other dudes and all of them strike out, we're not gonna be very good because there's value to a guy to protect that guy, hit around him, put pressure on defenses and things like that because you are playing an opponent, not just a nameless faceless computer simulation.
Michael Huber (36:30.338)
Well, then I guess a good follow on to that is, and you guys referenced briefly before about coach Hefner and leadership, right? So like to me, leadership is connected to that, Letting the players know like this is the culture, right? We're going to develop when it's time to develop and we're going to compete when it's time to compete and we're going to do the little things. If that means you have to sacrifice for yours, for the greater good, we're going to do that. But when it's time to develop, we're going to develop you in individually. mean, is that like
Can you talk more about that leadership side or maybe some of the lessons you've learned through your travels?
DAN (37:05.512)
Yeah, I mean, I think when you see the best ones, the ones that we've been around, I think of Coach Gambino all the time and I'm happy you said little things, because we got to be at practice at Penn State this year. Just watching how they went about their practice that day, they were doing kind of like a BP scrimmage quasi and like, they were teaching a lot that day.
Michael Huber (37:17.846)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (37:27.602)
And they were really harping on, you know, making sure we knew where cutoff guys were, where the base runners needed to be, where everyone on the field should be to give them an advantage. And I remember we sat down with him the next day to interview him and I asked him about, know, it seems like you guys are very, you know, you care about the little things a lot. And he said, yeah, well, I hate that phrase because they're little until they cost you a game and they're not little anymore. And, you know, I think that's what the best leaders do is you're exactly right. Like they preach it. Coach Aoki at Richmond, they're in the classroom and like
being able to sit in that classroom was awesome. You know, while they were, while they had a session with those guys and what they were going over on video, you know, they weren't going over yesterday's top VLOS. They weren't going over the furthest hit balls. They were going over base running and they were getting on guys who, you know, were showing a lack of effort. And it's like, you know, this is how we're going to win. have to do this because I think, you know, for a while there, yes. if you were a head coach, think you could, if you were really good at developing and you could build guys in labs, you had a leg up on everybody.
Not anymore, right? Like everybody's got it. We go to all these programs, we're showcasing them. Look, they're all really good at building pitchers and hitters. Yeah. So like, so now you better figure out another way to win. And I think, you know, Coach Hefner, a great example, like teaching the competitiveness side. I mean, they start even game days, they start in the classroom and they'll do just a fun trivia thing like the compete. They'll split the room into two or they'll have someone get up in front of room and they'll do a contest like, you know,
Michael Huber (38:30.314)
All doing it, right? So what's the separator?
DAN (38:54.79)
know, questions about that kid, like who knows their teammate best and stuff and they compete. And so he's like, we're starting our game days competing and it's not like we're going to rip your head off type of thing. It's like this. No, we're competing. I want these guys to win and they're going to have fun doing it. And then as they go from the classroom to the field, he's playing on the video board, the beautiful scoreboard they have and video board at Dallas Baptist. He's playing the guy's sizzle reels up there. So you're walking to the field and you're watching all your highlights like to build the confidence. They just went over compete. Now they're building confidence. And that's the first thing they're doing on a game day.
Michael Huber (39:18.944)
Yeah. Yes.
DAN (39:23.826)
And so yeah, think like the it is being taught by head coaches and the best ones are teaching that are, you the culture they're developing is, you know, finding ways to win in the margins and teaching guys how to compete.
Michael Huber (39:35.531)
Awesome. you touched this before, Dan, and I want to hear from both of you on this about your own personal experience. But generally speaking, one of the things that I experience a lot as a mental performance coach, and I'm very interested in that light, but just in general, is that jump from high school to college. So maybe it's as interviewers, or maybe it's as former coaches. What do you think some of the biggest challenges that like
freshman baseball players when they step on campus deal with in a general sense.
Trevor (40:09.202)
So I'll go, the first thing that comes to mind is one, weight room.
Right. And I will say that high school athletes are more physically developed now than they ever have been. Right. And it's we're talking about in the last four years to 10 years, even as you expand out the high school freshmen nowadays is physically more gifted than they've ever been. But there is still the element of a durability that is a 52 plus game season. The durability that is to get through a fall and throw every day. Like these are the things from a pitching side of things that most high
Michael Huber (40:16.247)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (40:21.91)
you
Trevor (40:42.502)
school kids have never done in their life is even a light toss day is a 50 to 70 throw day, right? Like in most of those guys aren't built up for that. So the weight room is kind of the savior for that. The other is, and this is maybe just my personality, is the adjustment to college, right? Like the biggest thing that's going to ruin most guys freshman year is, is sitting in their dorm room with a roommate that they hardly know whether they're a teammate or not, whether they're 10 minutes away from home or 10 hours away from home.
Michael Huber (41:00.418)
Yes.
Trevor (41:12.442)
You are in a dungeon of stress that you've never experienced in your life.
And then you have free will on top of that. So the stress and anxiety that comes from that, you also have free will and free access to fraternities and your teammates, alcohol closets and food at your disposal and dessert bars and everything like that. So I think that from the personal standpoint of the adjustment to college, and there's nothing that prepares you for it, right? Unless you go to a boarding school through high school. But the reality is, is there is going to be a moment in your freshman fall at some point where you're going to look in the mirror and you're going to
Michael Huber (41:29.623)
Yeah.
Trevor (41:47.041)
if you're gonna be able to continue to do it and continue to put two feet on the floor. But I think those are the two biggest adjustments from a baseball players that either makes or breaks really some guys careers, but at the very least their freshman seasons.
DAN (42:02.26)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. I mean, I think the second point Trevor just made is something that is very underrated when kids go through the recruiting process and we don't think about enough. Like, I personally, I think anyone who says their freshman year is easy baseball player or regular student is lying. Like, I just think it's hard. It is a hard, hard adjustment for every single person who does it, especially if you're going, you know, you're not going to the college down the street from where you grew up.
Michael Huber (42:07.929)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (42:23.531)
No, it's hard.
Michael Huber (42:31.779)
Yep. Yep.
DAN (42:31.89)
where you can pop in for dinner or laundry or get away from the roommate you barely know, right? Some kids have that luxury. A lot of kids don't write in your like Trevor said a dungeon of stress is like the best way I've ever heard it put actually like it because it is and I think that adjustment and then you know factor into that like the environment that a lot of kids come from before they get into college athletics, right? Like you are the best player on your high school team most likely you you know,
Michael Huber (42:42.585)
No
Michael Huber (42:53.763)
Yes.
DAN (43:00.88)
you went to a freak isoid high school where then it's a group of you. And when you're a senior, you're the man on that field, and you feel so comfortable in your skin. You're typically so comfortable with your coaches, whether you like them or not, you still know how to deal with them. Your teammates all either look up to you or your peers. They all think you're really good and you're having you're you're a lot more successful than you're not. And then you go to the bottom of the
you know, you go from a team, at least speaking from our experience, right, Trev, like we went from a team, our varsity team had 12 guys on it, right? We come from Delaware, it's really small. We went to a really small high school in Delaware. We had 12 guys on our varsity team. Now you're on a roster of 40 and like, you're not gonna get the attention that you got when you were a senior in high school from your coaches either. So like, now you have to, you know, you have to sort through that. So like, even the physical side alone, like I just think the mental hurdles for, for, you know, college freshmen and
Michael Huber (43:42.221)
Yep. Yes.
DAN (43:55.123)
you know, in my opinion, I think the best college coaches, how they deal with that is they coddle them a little bit and then push them when necessary. And I think it's a hard thing to do, like knowing when to hit the gas pedal with those guys and when hit the brakes is because like, it's hard, you're getting to know them as a coach when you're seeing them every day and the freshmen, you have to learn how to like what that relationship is going to be like, you're trying to build that trust. And like,
you don't know how they're going to react. Like maybe they just had, maybe they didn't sleep last night because they hate their roommate, their high school girlfriend that is now at a different school. They just got in a fight and now they're showing up and, you're going to be down his throat and get them to respond. It's a tough thing. And, and I think that's the hardest thing is like the personal side of things and just what happens to the, you know, the anxieties of being a college freshman.
Michael Huber (44:28.033)
Yes.
Michael Huber (44:40.025)
Yeah, and I literally see that, right? Girlfriends, I broke up with my girlfriend and my girlfriend's at another school, like she's next to me at two o'clock in the morning and I have to be a, and I'm like, listen, I'm not telling you what to do, but you got to think about what your priorities are. But one of the best things I've heard is actually it was in the second episode of my podcast. So five years ago now, the person at the time, I think she's still at IMG Academy, but she was like the head of mental performance at IMG Academy.
DAN (44:47.326)
They never last. They never last.
Michael Huber (45:09.847)
And I asked her about what she sees as sort of the indicator of success from going from high school to college. And she said, resourcefulness. And obviously, I asked her what she meant. And she's like, kind of knowing where the help is and going to ask for it. So like you said, in high school, I'm the man. I've been with my coach for two, three, four years. I know everybody. I know where to go. I know where everything is. I go get it. I'm good. And I go to college, and I need help.
One, I don't want to ask for because I don't want to look dumb or weak or not capable. Right. Like I don't have a relationship with my coach. What if I ask him for help and he says like, uh-oh, like, you know, this guy can't handle it. Whatever. Right. And so then they, but then they isolate. Right. And then they, internalize it and yeah, maybe they turns out in bad behaviors, eating, drinking, whatever.
Maybe their studies are bad or maybe it's just like anxiety, literally. Like I have those where they go to college and they have anxiety because they don't know, also don't know where they stand on the roster because they're used to being the man. Now there's 40 guys. I don't know what my role is until the very last minute. Even guys who are like in the spring, they're not getting told till a day or two before whether or not they're traveling. They're going bonkers.
because all they can think about is, I gonna travel? What does my coach think about me? When am I gonna play? And it's like this spiral. And I think they don't know how to handle that for a lot of reasons. And so it's a big part of what I'm doing. I do have a question about the fall specifically for freshmen. Because I've heard this from a number of guys that I work with. So I'm curious as to what your take is as former coaches. And maybe this is a division one thing, because all these guys were division one guys, but.
DAN (46:31.465)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (46:59.329)
I almost get the feeling from the way it's been described to me is that like the fall is sort of like a boot camp. Like, can we see who can handle it? So we're very hands off and we sort of just observe and let them like, let's see how they handle it versus like, I'm going to try to start coaching them right away. We'll start coaching them when we get to January when we're on the other side trying to win games. But right now we're sort of just doing this like, you know, top down evaluation and we're not giving much feedback.
And I've heard kids, I've had players say to me like, they don't tell me like they're not coaching me. They're not telling me what I need. I need feedback. They're not giving me feedback. I think some of that's the lab stuff you were talking about where I think they're just so used to being fed back so much that it's like probably normal, but like they feel like the coaches are almost like icing them out and they don't know kind of, it again drives them crazy. I mean, what do you, what do you think about that idea? It's more like a hypothesis that I've kind of developed based upon what the players tell me.
Trevor (47:54.426)
I think at least from the conversations we have more recently, I think coaches want to give those guys the opportunity to compete and have an opportunity to evaluate them without changing too much. I know from my former perspective as a coach, like I almost sat on ideas for too long because I didn't feel like I either had the relationship or B, I had the knowledge of why the kid was doing something specific that I didn't agree with.
Michael Huber (48:04.024)
I'm
Michael Huber (48:17.785)
I mean.
Trevor (48:23.533)
And I think there is a level of, don't want to go as far as humility, but at least of understanding of like trying not to insert yourself too much in a player that's probably already feels like he's drinking out of the fire hydrant. Right? So I think that's where, again, being able to have.
player in his freshman fall understand that like, it's not personal, right? Understanding that the coach is, you know, just because you used to be the superstar and the coach gave you all the attention doesn't mean that this coach doesn't like you, doesn't see you as a future. It's just a different coaching style. It's just a different leadership style. But I think they're really trying to give that leash of just evaluation for the player to kind of prove themselves before they change too much. Because I think at least in the college game, and I think I can say this for certain,
When you tinker with something, you're expecting three to four weeks to five to six weeks of regression before the progress. In high school baseball, these kids could change their stance up every time, and they're usually more athletic than the competition they're in. And so a coach could offer them a swing change. You could go to your local hitting coach, and he could completely change your setup on a Wednesday, and then you'd still go three for four on Friday. If you do that in college baseball, especially at the Division I level, you are gonna get eaten alive.
And so these coaches want to see what you kind of have in terms of the evaluation time and what your competition is and whether you can turn it on or turn it off against their top level arms before they start putting you in a position where you're really, your brain is going to have a lot of fog if they're throwing out all the information and all the advanced stuff that they want you to be doing. It's just about implementing your system, getting to kind of see how the player reacts to it, and then allowing them to kind of settle in before you start making those overarching changes.
Michael Huber (50:05.721)
What do think Dan?
DAN (50:07.482)
Yeah, I yes, absolutely everything Trevor just said. Yes, I guess so much of what we see too is exactly that is I think the relationship piece is huge in that too is you don't want to, you know, try and coach a guy too much before you've built the trust. And also, like Trevor just said, you don't want to try and start making changes until, know, you know what that kid has and what he can do, because those changes sometimes take a long time to to go and you need to know.
Michael Huber (50:33.549)
Yeah.
DAN (50:34.94)
A lot of times you need to say, what can we can this guy be playable right now with what he has? And then you start like Trevor said, you start banking ideas for what what they need to work on. And you also need the sample set like right, like if you make a change of one or two weeks worth of
might not be right. Like you need more data. You need more samples. You need to see his swing hundreds of times before you want to start tinkering because it can take a while to implement those adjustments. There is probably a hack. Let's see. don't Trevor. I want to know if you agree with this. There's probably a way to get around that, though, because most coaches are all the same where if you wind them up in the back, they'll just start doing their coach thing. So if you're in a practice setting and you just say, what do you think about that swing or what do you think? What is my lower half look like right there?
Michael Huber (50:52.727)
Yeah.
DAN (51:16.916)
they're gonna go because a lot of times too, you're bringing them that first breadcrumb, which you're telling them, I trust you, I want your help, I need you and not doing it in the office setting too because the office setting, well, I understand that that can be intimidating because you have the desk in between and like that feels like you're going into your boss's office. But if you're on the practice field and you're both in the, you you're in the practice uniform together, like, and you ask that question and you offer that breadcrumb up, they're gonna gobble it up 100 % of the time.
Michael Huber (51:22.925)
Yes.
Michael Huber (51:42.778)
But I'm glad I asked that question, because to me, then, the way you said it from a coach's perspective makes complete sense to me as a grown up. But the other side of it is with the kids is they're so used to being told, this is my observation, because I'm in the business of asking questions. And I'll ask a teenager questions, and they sometimes are confused when I ask their opinion or
What do you do in this situation to coach yourself through this? And they're like, what do you mean? Right? So they're waiting for the coach to tell them what to do because that's all they've ever had. And you're saying, well, I've got to wait as a coach to build that relationship. If I open my mouth, both sides can be true. And then there's this communication gap. Right? So I think what you said about the kid and I, and I'm on that side almost exclusively. That's what I would say to a kid is like, Hey, go have that conversation. Right? Whether it's on the field, ask the question.
DAN (52:13.555)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (52:40.973)
for feedback because that's gonna give you what you want and it's gonna give you a little bit of certainty to settle yourself. Or even if you have to go knock on the door, we can prepare for that. But if you're driving yourself crazy because you don't know where you stand, well then you got two choices. You can keep driving yourself crazy or you can go knock on the door. Pick which one you want. Right? And there's consequences to both but like I think that's like the thing that I'm most fascinated by is that relationship building and the communication because
the way an 18 year old sees it. And then they're coming off of being recruited when they were probably told something really good. And now you get the door and like you're derecruited, right? You're like, that's it, move on. Now you're one of us. Like you gotta be a soldier. Like I think that's really hard for kids because they were told they were so special for a year or two or three. And now all of a sudden it's like, yeah, you just like everybody else go figure it out. And they're like, what? You know?
DAN (53:16.306)
No doubt.
Michael Huber (53:34.19)
So, it is hard. It's like any transition. Like I think about my transition to college. I didn't play college baseball. I went to Michigan State. My college transition was brutal. I had a roommate from California. It was freaking freezing cold. I wasn't an athlete anymore. I played three sports in high school. I didn't have baseball or football or basketball anymore. Like that was hard for me. And I, and I wasn't even an athlete. And then you add that layer on. Holy crap. Like.
Trevor (54:01.236)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (54:01.486)
That's a lot. Like you got to really be a special kid to handle it. I guess one more question before we start to wrap up, because I think as we've learned in our conversations, we could pretty much go on forever and ever keep talking. But I think on that point, how much do you think that the portal for good or bad, not bashing it at all, it gives everybody options. I think it's the way of the world. But how much do you think that influences sort of that dynamic of
Well, if I don't think I'm getting what I want right away, I can pick up and go somewhere else.
Trevor (54:37.062)
It's funny because when the portal gets brought up, just I think based on Dan and I's ecosystem, we always lean towards like, the coaches aren't that bad and what they're doing and it's business decision and all those things like that. The players need to stick it up. So it is funny how like perspective is everything when you bring up the portal, but it...
It goes both ways, right? And I know obviously that's something that, you know, not everybody wants to hear, but we talked about this in a couple of weeks back on a podcast episode, how with the roster sizes decreasing in college baseball, that you have to be valuable. Like,
Michael Huber (54:56.878)
Yeah.
Trevor (55:12.976)
August 15th of your freshman year. Like you have to be ready. And if a coach doesn't see the opportunity for you to make at least some semblance of an impact in the next season, or if you're lucky and you have a ton of potential and you have a ton of, you know, molding that needs to be done your sophomore year, they're going to go find somebody else. I mean, we used to talk about it to our guys, not as a threat, but like we're always recruiting your replacement.
Michael Huber (55:38.146)
reality.
Trevor (55:39.841)
We are like, that was our job. That was my job as a recruiting coordinator was to go find a shortstop that was better than our All-American because if we could move our All-American to second base and replace him with a really good player, we'd be really fricking good team and we'd all be really happy. So I think from like that side of things is players need to understand that. Like it is more business like than it ever has been. There's no courtesy roster spots. There's no, come and get your seasoning and marinate and you'll be a stud your junior year and making an impact.
Michael Huber (55:54.009)
You
Trevor (56:08.752)
If you're not ready to make an impact right away, they're gonna go find somebody who can and who will in the immediate future, even if it doesn't have the high level ceiling that is there. And then I think the other side is for the players is, you know, a lot of players, take the easy way out. You know, I think if they get the situation that they don't love their freshman year, they're not getting the TLC that they need. They're not getting the playing time that they think that them and mom and dad think they deserve.
Michael Huber (56:28.899)
Yeah, sure.
Trevor (56:36.616)
I go find somebody else who's gonna give it to them. So it's like almost an infinite loop of just replacing yourself in another situation that you feel like you're gonna get the necessary TLC that you need rather than, you know, gritting your teeth and getting through it and finding yourself in a situation where you're competing for a job and earning the right to compete and play at a school after two years of being a backup and giving your all to the program and...
those kind of stories aren't as common anymore. So I think with the portal, just gives everybody has a get out of jail free card. And I think that is a good thing, right? And in a semblance of like players have the ability to move if they really had a bad situation, they really made the wrong decision. I would hate to have that player tied in and then have to lose a year of eligibility because he has to stay there. And then for coaches, obviously, if they make the wrong decision from a personnel standpoint, they can go find a player to replace that player.
I do think it limits the ability for people to kind of get through adverse situations and grow into a person. Cause like again, like Dan and I both spent multiple years at a program. You're in your third year at a program. You love that school. You love every inch of that school. You love the people that are in your classes. You've spent three years with those people. You love your teammates. You love your coaches. You meet your coach's kids, your coach's wife. You understand those situations. Like there is a lot of validating experiences and being at a program for four years.
Michael Huber (57:45.869)
Yeah.
Trevor (57:57.875)
Some guys are at one program a year and I just don't ever see them getting the benefits that I felt like I got out of my college career outside of just the baseball element.
Michael Huber (58:08.889)
Yeah, mean, I think there's a bunch in there. I don't have a view either way. I don't pick sides. I see it's a business transaction, but I think it's that, go back to what I was saying before about why am I going to this school? Because if I'm going to the school to get playing time, then maybe I need to recalibrate where I wanna go. If I wanna play, do I go to a jukebox?
Do I go to a division three because I'm going to have a better chance to get on the field because that's the number one priority versus am I going to be happy? Like if I'm happy to division one school and I'm not playing, but I love the coaches, I love the staff, I love the ecosystem, I love the campus and I'm okay not playing, then that's a good decision, right? Versus, well, I want to go to this place, but I'm not playing. now like.
You gotta figure out what's most important to you and then make decisions through that lens versus I'm gonna go to the best school I can go to and then I'm surprised when I'm not one of the 34 best guys because everybody's a stud and now I'm gonna leave, right? Because I'm with you, like, develop. Like, I'm the old guy again, like, stick it out. I do, well, let me ask you this question. I'll get off my soapbox. I don't really wanna talk as much as I am. Do you think that there's...
more expectation from first years that they're gonna play going in? Like, do you think nowadays when kids walk in, like, do you think they have unrealistic expectations about playing as a freshman? Or do you think it's justified and it's like, hey, they're competitive, they wanna compete? Like, I don't know where you guys fall out on that.
DAN (59:46.045)
think it's the same as it's been forever. Everybody, you're the star on your high school team. You think you're gonna go in there and you're gonna play right away and you're gonna be the guy right away. And I think that.
Michael Huber (59:48.536)
Over.
DAN (59:58.953)
the interesting thing that we're going to run into as roster shrink as you might have to at some schools like more got more young guys are probably at some schools, depending on that school situation are going to have to play because you're not going to have as deep of a roster anymore. And because the portal is a thing and some schools are going to lose guys to the portal and have to rely on younger talent.
because maybe they're a mid-major and guys transfer up because they do a really good job of developing. But no, don't think that guys have it. I think everyone forever in college athletics, right? Everyone thinks they're going to go be a star as a freshman. It's hard to be in a 17-year-old's ecosystem and tell them they're not. At least if you were in mine, like I was going to be a big leaguer. No one was like, hey, man, you're 5 foot 10. No, you're not.
Michael Huber (01:00:44.858)
Right?
DAN (01:00:48.092)
right? Like, and if you did, I would have called you right, I would have been like, you just don't believe in me, right? So I think it's hard to, it's hard to hear that. So I don't think they're unrealistic with it. But in our like the utopian society that I would create in college athletics is what you were saying, like you go to the school for the values. I love this coaching staff. I like the campus. I have a major outside of the thing that I care about. You know, I you know, I love the college town. And look, I didn't do it right, right out of high school.
Trevor (01:00:53.811)
to your hater.
DAN (01:01:17.638)
and I ended up at a place where I felt that way, where like you could have taken baseball away from me at my second school. I would have been fine with it because I loved the campus. I love the people that I was there with. Like I love the college town and that was great. And in in this utopian world where guys were doing that and then you would hit the transfer portal if you got recruited over, right? If the guy who's younger than you, hey, it's my junior year. This is supposed to be my year. wait, that sophomore freshman just beat me out. Then you hit the portal. That would be
Michael Huber (01:01:26.33)
Mm-hmm.
DAN (01:01:47.564)
Those are the guys who should go to the portal, right? Because you don't want to spend four years riding the bench. I get that.
Trevor (01:01:49.972)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (01:01:52.312)
Right. Yeah. Go ahead.
Trevor (01:01:55.681)
I was just going to say even, you know, I try to put myself in the athlete shoes. Like Dan said, kind of mentioning that he thought he was going to be a big leader. Like the same thing to answer your question is like, everybody thinks they're going to be a rock Chalowski or any of the freshmen, all American, like they hear the stories and it's the one story at the top. Right. Like, so again, not to get too deep into my story and Dan kind of mentioned there, like we both don't want to get too deep into our playing career, but like I
went to college as a freshman and didn't play baseball. I walked away from baseball. I thought I was going to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 10 years talking about my journey of how I quit baseball and gave up on it and then came back and found my way into being a freshman and All-American at a Division I program. Like I was freaking Rudy. Like and like it's just so funny to look back at it and like be like that in my shoes now. That's absurd. But when you're the athlete in that scenario, you see the freshman All-American you think that's you.
DAN (01:02:31.847)
you
Michael Huber (01:02:40.954)
you
DAN (01:02:41.012)
You
Trevor (01:02:52.225)
You see the guy that got drafted from a division three per like we always joked about this I coached Alex Madera who obviously is a New Jersey kid and played at Arcadia and went to UNC had a ton of success just got picked up and the MLB every kid we recruited thought he was the next Alex Madera There's one of those a year in all of division three baseball if you're lucky, right and every kid we recruited thought they were gonna come to our school They're gonna be great. They're gonna replace Alex at shortstop Then they're gonna go play two years at UNC and then they're gonna be picked up by the Cubs and like
Michael Huber (01:02:59.226)
Mm-hmm.
Trevor (01:03:22.201)
From our detached perspective, of course, we're like, that's absurd to think, you know, that's a one percenter. But every kid that signs up to play Division three baseball thinks they're going to be the guy that gets drafted, the guy that kicks up to Division one and beyond.
DAN (01:03:33.333)
The parents don't help with that either.
When I was recruiting at a Division two and I just have a memory in my head. I'm sorry. When I'm recruiting it, when I was recruiting at a Division two program and I had played at Shepherd University and I played with Brenton Doyle, who's a third round pick. He's in the big leagues with the Rockies and you, you know, they ask you where you play and you say Shepherd. remember a parent being like, you play with Brenton Doyle. And it's like, your guy's not like, you know, no, don't tell your son. No, no, no, no. This is not, let's not go down this path. This is, that's not who your son is. I'm sorry. Like that kid.
Trevor (01:03:37.13)
Yes.
Michael Huber (01:03:59.707)
How do you know that?
DAN (01:04:06.794)
was a cyborg like it's one of one.
Michael Huber (01:04:08.719)
Right.
Trevor (01:04:10.069)
You'd be shocked at how many parents ask how many, you know, what's how many professionals have you put into professional baseball? What's the path for my kid to be a professional baseball player to division two or division three school? It's like, you know, we've had two of them in the history of our program, right? Like, and they were both unicorns.
Michael Huber (01:04:27.012)
Yeah, but I think it, and I agree with you, right? There's some level of realism that has to come into the process. However, like if a kid came to me and said, hey, I want to be a professional baseball player. Yeah. But right. The process, the process, does the process match the goal? Right. Meaning, okay, you want to be a professional? Let's go get it. What do you got to do to be a professional? You can't make excuses.
Trevor (01:04:36.981)
100%. Good. Yes. Yeah. Do what it takes. Yup. Do what it takes. Yeah. Yes.
DAN (01:04:37.716)
Good. You say good. Good. You're gonna work hard. Yep.
DAN (01:04:46.941)
Right.
Michael Huber (01:04:55.022)
We can't miss a lift, we can't eat junk food. Everything has to be eat, sleep, and breathe baseball 24-7 and do everything right to even have a chance to do that. Are you willing to do that? If the actions don't match that, then it's just a dream. Then it's just everyone's delusional versus, hey, you want that? You're playing college baseball. You can go get it.
But you got to drop everything else because that's the only way it's going to happen, right? You're, especially if you're not, I don't know how big he is, but I know he's big and he's athletic and he's really good. You know, you're a normal size guy. Like you got to put everything aside and say, this is, I'm willing to fail nonstop every single day to get to where I want to go. And I don't care what happens. I'm going to get there no matter what. Cause the guys who keep going are the ones that give themselves a chance. Most people don't keep going. They're gone after the first year. I'm going to transfer.
DAN (01:05:19.248)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (01:05:46.235)
You know, this is hard, but I'm going to just keep grinding because I love it so much and the process matches the goal. That's I think that's where the rubber meets the road and a lot of kids aren't willing to do that. You know, and sometimes it's just unknowingly they don't understand what it takes. They think they do, but they don't really understand. And that's that's you know, it's tough to be the person to tell them. That's not it, you know.
DAN (01:05:46.854)
Exactly right.
Trevor (01:06:10.954)
Yeah, and I used to tell everybody this, Like to answer your point, it's funny you say that because Dan and I are throwing the ice bath on somebody's hopes and dreams. I tell every athlete I've ever worked with, I hope you play 20 years in the big leagues. I don't care if they're a division three guy, I don't care if they're division one, I don't care if they're in the SEC, I don't care if it's an eight year old. I hope you play 20 years in the big leagues and I hope you do what's necessary to get there and I hope your baseball career never ends until you have a swan song where you...
Michael Huber (01:06:37.69)
Mm-hmm.
Trevor (01:06:38.89)
Play your last year out and everybody's celebrating you, giving you gifts at every park you play at, right? But on that last point you made, right? Like so many people don't understand what it takes. I always tell this story about Alex and not that Alex needs my stamp of approval. I still remember to this day, he was out in the fall and he couldn't hit. We're taking BP during an inter-squad day and I hear somebody yelling at me.
Like I'm freaking his buddy on his team because I stopped hitting fungos because I was trying to help the kid in the cage.
because Alex couldn't take a swing all fall. He wanted a billion ground balls because he was convinced he was going to play shortstop at the division one level. When our team would have no lift, we'd have all from lift in the early spring. I always would go and I'd walk in the afternoon on the treadmill. I go into the weight room and I look over to the left. Guess who's getting after it drenched in sweat. Alex Medeira, it's like all of these things. It's like, you want to be that guy. Like you have to do that stuff when nobody's looking and obsess over it. That kid was obsessed with being a division one
baseball player and then when the opportunity came he didn't pass on it and he made the most of it right like in most of these kids they don't understand that like yeah you have to do uncommon things and even then like this is the craziest thing too that they don't understand you have to do uncommon things and it guarantees nothing it guarantees nothing outside of like you could be a solid division three player and that's it and you have to be okay with that when you commit to it like are you willing to do this if it just means being a good high school baseball player you might never get a college opportunity but you're
Michael Huber (01:07:50.349)
Mmmmm
Michael Huber (01:07:57.22)
That is not me.
Michael Huber (01:08:02.777)
Yes.
Trevor (01:08:09.336)
going obsess over this, you're going to work your tail off and you're going to put yourself out there to do those things. But you might never accomplish these big league dreams, but you still have to be okay with that. And I think that's the thing is like, if you told them that like, I don't know if I want to do those hard things, but those guys that do make it like they're obsessed. It's every single day.
Michael Huber (01:08:22.874)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (01:08:26.938)
It's such a good point. It's such an important point. And I see this all the time with kids who get injured, right? Like you said, like, OK, so now it's an opportunity to work on something that you wouldn't normally work on because you've got more free time. Are you doing those things? And 99 times out of 100, they're not doing them, which is fine because they're kids. But you can't tell me that you want to play in the ACC or the SEC or get drafted if you're not willing to.
spend an extra half hour working on whatever, your breathing or your upper body because your lower body's hurt. You can't tell me you want it and then not do it. And you have the one example where you watched it and that was the kid who got his shot and he took it because he was willing to do whatever it took. Most kids aren't. that's okay. And that's what I tell them. That's where the mental performance coach, it's okay. It's okay if you don't do that, but you just need to understand.
that the consequences are likely to be whatever you set expectations you set for yourself, they're not gonna get met because you're not willing to do the work that goes, that's aligned with that. That's all good. If you can square that circle, we're good. That's best you can do.
DAN (01:09:38.32)
It's perfectly fine. If you don't want to put the work in, there's no shame in not being a professional baseball player. Most people aren't. It's completely okay, but you have to be okay with it. And that's where it gets tricky.
Michael Huber (01:09:40.109)
Yeah!
Exactly.
Trevor (01:09:45.184)
Yeah.
Michael Huber (01:09:51.641)
Right. Yeah. And yeah, and I think that's probably the next episode because there's a whole conversation around that. So as we wrap up, the question I normally ask all of my guests is like, what's one piece of advice that you would leave with a listener? But with you guys, I'm going to ask it this way. What's one thing you've learned from your on the trail?
talking to coaches, like what's the one thing that stands out from the coaches you've spoken to, the college coaches, that like just kind of rings true for you that you would share, you know, to wrap up.
DAN (01:10:31.376)
Mike Gambino said something that probably changed my life for forever and I remember driving home How long was that ride trev five hours something like that from happy valley and I probably well we got stuck in traffic But I probably brought it up to Trevor. He was ready to kick me out of the car but Mike Gambino told me that he has his job is to teach 18 to 23 year olds that they can be both tough and vulnerable at the same time and that like
Trevor (01:10:39.54)
longer than that.
DAN (01:11:00.02)
just to me that unlocked so many different things for me personally, like not even just as a baseball player, but like it's so important for college athletes is like, you know, just as a human being, being able to be tough and vulnerable and what that actually means. to me, that's like the one thing that I'll always like number one, cause that to me transcended the, you know, sports.
Michael Huber (01:11:03.587)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Huber (01:11:23.194)
I love it. Trev.
Trevor (01:11:24.746)
Yeah, I would say obviously that's one that stood out to both of us because I think both of us think that's important and the guys that we coached, we wanted them to understand that we would do the same for them and that's what we wanted to kind of build up in those guys. you know, so I'll go more of like on the leadership side is just like how you treat people. The best coaches we've been around, they're not arrogant.
They want to learn from us. They want to hear our backstory. They want to hear how we got into doing what we're doing. They wanted to hear what we've learned from other people. They're awesome to be around. They're people that you would want to go get lunch with and they treat you like you're a million bucks, even if they, you know, they might turn around and talk bad behind your back and just that ability to be humble, right? And, and learn and be leaders of your own life and how they interact with their guys and how their willingness to change and adapt to each individual guy. It's not,
You have to be in my program and you have to adjust to me. Those guys, Dan said it earlier, but it's my favorite thing in the world. They're all chameleons. know, the best chameleon in the world is Matt Hobbs in my mind. The other best one's Dan Hefner. The other best one's Wes Johnson, right? And these guys that just have the ability to connect with people from so many different walks of life and the ability to build a team out of that or a pitching staff out of that.
is unbelievably impressive and it takes an open mindedness. It takes an ability to put yourself in a kid's shoes or a parent's shoes or somebody's situation and not tell them what they should be, but also just welcome them in and bring them into your situation and empower them to be the best version of themselves. And the best coaches in the country do that and it's not a cutthroat environment where guys aren't comfortable to be themselves. Each and every one of them care about their guys unconditionally. They care about other people, but there's a humility to it. There's a willingness to work with each individual and be
adaptable to what that individual's needs are.
Michael Huber (01:13:13.914)
freaking awesome. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. If you're still listening at this point, all of the backside ground balls media links will be in the show notes so you can check it out there. Trev Dan, thanks so much for coming on guys. This is awesome. We gave me over an hour. I really appreciate it.
DAN (01:13:32.542)
Thanks for having us. A lot of fun. Yeah.
Trevor (01:13:34.262)
could have went for two.
Michael Huber (01:13:35.364)
Probably. Take care, fellas.
Michael Huber (01:13:41.691)
There we go. All