How is former Division I basketball player Tonya Sims using her experiences to help young players navigate the recruiting process today?
The college sports recruiting process has changed drastically over the past 20 years, most notably through the use of technology and social media. Athletes today are challenged with using the resources at their disposal to create a clear and compelling brand for college coaches.
My guest on this episode, Tonya Sims, was a high school All-American, member of the University of Wisconsin women’s basketball team, and former WNBA player.
Tonya has seen the recruiting process as a player who received letters in the mail in high school to a recruiting advisor helping young athletes to navigate a very different process requiring intentional branding and outreach to college coaches.
Tonya also discusses her transition from high school to college basketball, as well her transition from the technology world to the WNBA and back to being a software executive and starting her own recruiting advisory practice.
My suggestion to high school student-athletes would be to clearly establish your personal brand and be consistent and persistent in communicating that message to college coaches in the recruiting process.
I want to thank Tonya for her kind generosity and the wisdom he shared with The Freshman Foundation Community.
You can learn more about Tonya on her website at upperlevelsportsacademy.com and her Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/secretsofcollegerecruiting.
You can learn more about The Freshman Foundation on our website at freshmanfoundation.com.
Thank you for listening. We’ll see you back soon for Episode 20!
Tonya Sims 1:27 I'm doing great, Michael. How are you? Michael Huber 1:29 This is great. I'm so happy to be here talking to you. I'm excited for our conversation. So, for the listeners who are on, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Tonya Sims 1:43 Sure. Yeah. So, I am born and raised in Southeastern Wisconsin, right in between Milwaukee, Chicago, a little city called Racine, Wisconsin. We have heard about it from our famous Kringle. We've also had some pretty good athletes come out of Racine as well. I pretty much like grew up with like a basketball in my hand. I was pretty much born with a basketball in my hand. Um, but when I was younger, I played all different sports from softball to soccer, to volleyball, but it's really basketball is a sport that I really kind of took to and stuck with. so, um, you know, both of my parents. Are athletes or athletes? I should say my dad, um, Uh, played basketball for the air force. My mom was a hurdle for the air force as well. And my brother played division one college basketball. Uh, so yeah, so I guess it just kind of started from there. I mean, it was, um, it was a really good intro. I went on to play in high school. I started all four years for my varsity in high school, then went to college at Wisconsin and played professionally in Europe and for the Minnesota Lynx. Michael Huber 2:49 Excellent. So, I mean, Clearly, you know, sports were in your blood, so to speak from the beginning. So what was it about basketball that kind of led you to go down that path? I Tonya Sims 3:03 think just from seeing like my dad and my brother playing, you know, and kind of growing up, I grew up around all boys. I was like the only girl. Uh, in my neighborhood and like out of my group of friends, like in my, in my, my older brother's friends, I used to kind of tag along with him. And so, uh, he would take me to go play basketball. He's like six years older than me. So, I mean, imagine like, you know, he's like 12 when I'm like six kind of playing with what the. With, with the, uh, boys. So, uh, and my mom, even though she didn't play basketball like competitively or anything, I mean, she was an amazing, phenomenal athlete, probably one of the, probably the best athlete in our family. Uh, and, uh, you know, she used to take notes side and we used to play basketball. In our, in our backyard. And, um, yeah, so I just kind of grew up, you know, just also watching basketball, like the NBA and college. Um, you know, watching magic Johnson, like he was one of my favorite, you know, he is my, like my basketball idol. Like I really modeled my game after him. So, yeah. So that's kind of how it started. Michael Huber 4:05 Yeah, well, growing up, I was a big magic Johnson fan too. I just loved the way that he controlled the game and his ability to see the court. So, uh, you've got good tastes and basketball players. So w I mean, so at what point, you know, as you're getting older and moving up, and obviously you played all four years in high school, like at what point did you have a sense that, Hey, this is something that's going to be. Could be a big deal for me. Tonya Sims 4:33 I think it was probably my eighth grade year going into high school. And the reason I say that is because, um, so I started playing AAU. Basketball. Uh, in seventh grade, I know that's kind of late, cause I know like, like kids play very early age. You. My nephew played certain age when he was in second grade. Uh, so I started playing AAU in seventh grade and. I didn't particularly have a good tournament. Uh, during that summer of seventh grade. I remember playing on a national determinant in Arizona. Uh, but, um, I started getting letters from colleges actually around that time when I was like 13. Uh, I was like, wow, I didn't even play that. Great. But I'm getting letters from colleges. And so like the next year, I really elevated my game and I played on my, uh, my eighth grade year going into summer going into high school. I played on my high school, varsity severally to you. And I played pretty well, so I thought, oh wow. You. Maybe this is something I can, I can continue doing in college. Um, so let's kind of, you know, how it got started. Yeah. Michael Huber 5:36 It sounds like those letters that you started to get in the junior high. I mean, that has to be like good feedback for you. Like, Hey, like I have a better understanding of where I'm at here, which I think a lot of athletes, you know, don't get that till later, if, if at all. Right. So to know that psychologists are interested at that point, it's gotta be like evidence that, okay. Like maybe there's something, something to this. That's a Tonya Sims 5:59 great point because I think, I mean, my experience is a little bit unique in that, in my recruiting journey started very early, but I still like. You know, even though I got those letters of that letter. Um, Uh, when I was 13, I didn't really. I didn't really like maybe take it as seriously until I started giving, getting more heavily. Recruited. Um, so. Michael Huber 6:23 So when did, when did it start? When did you start to get more heavily recruited? At what point? And what did that look like? Tonya Sims 6:29 Yeah, I'll actually never forget this. This is a ninth grade. Ninth grade. I was, um, Uh, we were playing. At home on our home court against, uh, our nemesis. Uh, I say nemesis because they beat us at state every year, except my senior year. We finally beat them for the state championship. Uh, but, uh, Walkie Washington had, uh, I think every. Every starter that they had went D one. So. I was like, I mean, they had a, I mean, their team was a loaded, right. And so, uh, all these college coaches were there. I mean, not to see me. They were there to see them, you know? Uh, and so I had a really good game. I think I maybe have like 20 points. A temporary balance, something like that. And. Uh, That's when it started. I remember my dad telling me that they were talking to him after the game, you know, cause they're going to, they couldn't talk to me. It could because of the rules. So that's when it really started. I think. Uh, and I started getting more letters and started getting invited to some of these like a week camps. So, Michael Huber 7:31 so. Ultimately you choose. Wisconsin. Yeah. Your home, state, your homeschool. Um, when did you commit. Tonya Sims 7:41 I committed, uh, the summer of going into my senior year. Michael Huber 7:45 Okay. Tonya Sims 7:45 Yep. So I came in at a fairly early actually I know, um, that doesn't always happen, but I pretty much had my mind made up. I really liked. Uh, uh, my college coach, um, I thought she was a good coach and I thought she had a great personality and that would be a great culture fit and a as well as like an academic good academics as well. So yeah, I, I, I pretty much had my mind made up and I just thought, you know what? I don't want to like. Probably not any longer. Um, I also did not want to, um, I also didn't want to miss out on school just because the guy. You know, I had to take all my visits and stuff. I didn't want to, I didn't take any business, actually. I just, I knew where I wanted to go and I just kind of made my mind up from there. But I do encourage, you know, uh, student athletes and parents to, to take those visits if they can. Um, you know, but my situation was a little bit unique, so. Michael Huber 8:39 So. What? So, I mean, it sounds like it was a pretty straightforward process, I guess, in terms of like, you kind of had your mind made up, you felt like it was a good fit for you, which is something I hear all the time in conversations I have on this podcast. And just with people who are in this field about, you know, finding a school that fits you and not just from. An athletic standpoint, right? From a holistic standpoint, academically, socially, right? Why are you going there? Like, what are the reasons you're going there? Um, and I know now what I hear a lot of is, well, you know, kids pick schools based on reputation or name and social media is a big driver of that process, you know, in terms of peer pressure and things like that. So like, I mean, if you put your hat on as, as somebody who's an expert in the recruiting process, like. What do you see now? And I'm not going to jump ahead, but like, what do you see now with, with, in terms of like kids were making choices and how social media affects their choices? I Tonya Sims 9:39 think you're right on the money. I mean, uh, social media was not around when I was coming up. Thank goodness. But, uh, I am a big fan of social media, actually, especially in the recruiting process. A lot of college coaches use Twitter. Uh, it's an amazing recruiting tool. Yes, I think you're right. Um, Um, The whole, I mean, I think because now, like student athletes have to brand themselves, I think one of the good ways to do that. Is using social media. Um, I've known college coaches who, or programs who actually. Has to be like recruit. Student athletes in high school, or even like middle school who have like large social media followings, just because of that reason. You know, so I think it is a increasingly important, um, tool that is going to be even more, uh, becoming even more popular. Michael Huber 10:28 That's actually, that's a really great point because I think sometimes the immediate reaction is social media is the source of. You know, all the world's evils. Yeah. And to your point, it's a resource, right? It's a communication tool. And if it's used properly, Right to message properly to brand yourself and it's done within the rules. Extremely effective in terms of getting a message across or getting somebody's attention that you want to, you know, you want to get to, because I think that's one of the things that I hear a lot too, is, is a lot of kids expect the recruiting process to come to them. As opposed to, Hey, I have to sell myself because there's so many kids now in that funnel. So to speak that, like, if I don't differentiate myself follow up and really. You know, take a unique position. Like I'm just gonna get drown out with everybody else. Is that, is that what you're saying? Tonya Sims 11:19 Yes. And that's one of the things that I do help. More appearance and athletes that I work with. Like, what I teach them is, uh, you know, um, your child is in the business of, of sales, you know, I think we think of sales as like, I don't know, like a business person holding a briefcase. But. Um, but they're in the business of sell. It's like non sales selling, right. They have to sell their story. They have, and their story has to be compelling. Uh, to the college coaches, to the college programs. On. And I think having a unique story, having, uh, having a compelling story. I will definitely set them apart from the next recruit. Yeah. Michael Huber 11:58 Absolutely. And as somebody who's in sales in a number of different capacities in my professional career, I don't look at it as a negative. I think it's a positive if you're. To your point doing it. In the right way, meaning you're building awareness, right? You're building awareness and. Frankly, what I've heard from some of the coaches that I've interviewed on this show is they say like the kid who is persistent and who follows up and says, Hey, I really want to be at your program in your program. Like that goes a long way to coaches because it shows that they really want to be a part of it versus like having the coach, having to chase them around or the kid being noncommittal or kind of being, you know, a little bit nonchalant. And then they're like, do I really want this kid? Because he doesn't seem like he's really motivated to be a part of. Of what we have here. And I, I think there's a lot of misconceptions. It seems to me like from what I've gathered, not now that I'm an expert in it, but it seems like there's a lot of misconceptions in the process. Yeah, Tonya Sims 12:57 that's right. I mean, that's exactly right, because, um, yeah, you have to follow up like that. The athlete has to follow up with the college coach and be persistent, right? Because coaches. Once someone who's like assertive. Uh, and sometimes like coaches made me don't respond or they ghost players, but most times it's not on purpose it's because of college, college courses are very busy. They get tons of email, right? So, uh, the athlete has to. Um, you know, continually follow up. If they send an email, if you don't hear back. Maybe follow up. Like one week and then two weeks. But yes, the followup strategy is like extremely vital. Michael Huber 13:35 I couldn't agree with you more. I follow-up is absolutely something I talk to athletes about. I think it's important. So we'll come back. We'll come back. I sort of jumped ahead a little bit, but I want to ask you about. Your choice. Yeah. You chose Wisconsin. What was that? Translation transition from high school, which obviously you're very decorated player to moving into the big 10 high level division one college basketball. Like what was that transition like for you? Tonya Sims 13:59 Yeah, it was. Some of it was smooth and some, it was a little Rocky. Uh, so. Transitioning from high school to college, like on the Michael Huber 14:11 court? Well, Tonya Sims 14:11 I'll start with that. Like, It was, it was good. Like, I mean, I knew there was like a lot of expectations that were being promised because I was an all American person, all American in high school. And I was coming in too. A college program that had, you know, some pretty good players, but we learned to make an impact right away. And I knew that I was expected to. Uh, quickly make an impact. Um, and I feel like I was able to do that. You know, with the help of like my coaches and my teammates and things like that. Academically. It was a little bit of a struggle. Uh, I. I did. I performed pretty well in high school. Like academically. Uh, but when I went to college, I did struggle like just with, uh, because of like the time management. Um, and it's, it's weird because like, I mean, both my parents were in the military and, uh, they provided like a lot of discipline. For me and my brother. Uh, but when I went to college, that kind of all went out the window. Uh, you know, just because of myself, like not, uh, You know, like when you're in college, When you're on your own pretty much, right? Like there's no one getting up in the morning and you know, you'd have to go to class on your own. You have to go to practice on your own. And then the other thing is too. Um, The class sizes at Wisconsin are huge. I remember being in my psychology class, there was like 400 people in the class. So, um, so that part was a little Rocky. Uh, in the beginning, but I did finally get adjusted. Uh, to that. Thank goodness because, um, it would have been pretty bad if I didn't. I Michael Huber 15:42 had a very similar college experience. Like I wasn't an athlete, but I went to Michigan state. So I was a big 10 university. And my e-comm one-on-one class was like, uh, You know, this auditorium of like four or 500 people, which is like, I, I want my graduating class was like a little over a hundred. So for me, it was like it was a new world. And plus I never really learned how to study, like the process of actually like intake, kicking in information and like retaining it. So I had to learn all that on the fly too. It probably took me a good. Three semesters to really get comfortable. So I can't even imagine what that's like when you're trying to fit in and learn how to, you know, be a part of a team at a division one program. And then you have all these other responsibilities that are sort of new to you. Uh, it almost sounds like the basketball was like, this is the constant, like, this is the easy part is the sports. It's all the other stuff that maybe was a little bit more challenging. Tonya Sims 16:35 Yeah. You actually made me think. I haven't having flashbacks. Michael Huber 16:39 Like Tonya Sims 16:39 two o'clock in the morning, like pulling all nighters, which I could never do now. But. And that's true. Like, I didn't know how to study. Um, and I, I didn't know, like my learning style, I learned all that. You know, probably like my junior year moving forward. I learned. I'm very visual. I'm a visual learner. I'm a hands-on learner. Um, and once I. Kind of got that under control. Like things is kind of like, you know, Went a lot better for me. So, okay. Michael Huber 17:08 So, so tell me about learning coding. Yeah. Did that in college? Tonya Sims 17:14 Um, I actually, so, uh, I learned coding. Um, so I started coding X when I was a kid. I know, uh, Back in the water. I won't say it because I'll totally date myself. A long time ago when computers weren't as popular. Uh, my parents actually bought a computer. It was a Texas instrument. I think it was like a TA 80. 82 or something like that. But anyways, Uh, um, Uh, I learned how to code in basic, which was like Microsoft's first language. I think it was like eight or nine or something like that. And, um, It was so much fun. Like my brother and I would just, we would just code on that computer and then like, you know, I did stop for a little bit. And then in high school I took a few coding classes, like some HTML and CSS stuff, you know, like the front end stuff. Um, Majored in business in college. I did not take a computer science class in college. Um, after I retired from sports, I moved to Chicago. And I was working for a financial company in a, in a, more of a business capacity in their it department. Uh, and so I was like, oh my God, like, this is what I want to do. So I got the bug again for technology. And so that's where I, when I taught myself how to code and I was able to transition into a role like within there. And they're within their company doing coding. Michael Huber 18:34 Awesome. Tonya Sims 18:35 Yeah. Michael Huber 18:38 Um, so yeah, that's amazing. So. So that that's kind of led you to your. Second career right in, in the software world. Um, so I'm going to go back. So you spend four years at Wisconsin. You graduate. Tonya Sims 18:56 Yes, I graduated. It took me five years. But that's Michael Huber 19:00 not Tonya Sims 19:00 really uncommon anymore. Uh, I, yes, I, uh, so I. I played for when I was a student athlete for four years. And then, um, I was actually invited to the WNB draft camp. Uh, after my fourth year, I politely declined because I wanted to finish my education. I, I felt that, you know, getting my degree was more important. Um, and I'm glad I did. I'm. I followed my intuition on that. Um, and so, yeah, um, Um, and I actually. Didn't even have plans to play professionally. So what happened was, um, after I finished my fourth year, um, you know, unfortunately, um, um, nine 11 happened, you know, obviously that was. Horrible. Uh, and, um, the academy just shut down. I couldn't get a job in my field. And so that's when I started training. To go. Play overseas. So. Michael Huber 19:55 Interesting. So your, your plan wasn't initially to play professionally, it was sort of a pivot based upon what was going on. In the job market. Tonya Sims 20:03 Exactly. Yeah, it was a, yeah. Uh, you know, fortunately it happened like that, but, um, but you know, at least I did have some type of backup plan, I guess. Uh, but yeah, I wasn't even looking to. Uh, Kate refreshing. I wanted to start working in a bin. In the business world. So, Michael Huber 20:21 so that's so interesting, right? Because it's, you know, stereotypically, it's the opposite, right? I want to play professionally. And when that doesn't work out, I have to go find a regular job. Whereas you wanted to go start working and it kind of came around where you're like, Hey, I need to do this because it's, you know, there's not really that much opportunity. So. What was your first. What was your first, um, Professional team or your first job playing professionally. Yeah, Tonya Sims 20:49 it was in Poland. Uh, over in Europe. Uh, I played for the Polish women's basketball league over there. Uh, and it was great. I mean, I love, uh, traveling over to Europe was amazing. Um, I, we just traveled, uh, Uh, within Poland. Michael Huber 21:04 Um, Tonya Sims 21:04 and played different professional teams there. My coach was amazing. Teammate's great. I was the only American on my team. The only American. Uh, I remember they told me, my agent told me that my coach spoke English and stuff. When I, I was like, okay, great. And. So like when I went. When I got over and I landed and I met him, he was like, oh, hi, nice to meet you. And that was the only. Words of English. And you ought to speak, but. Luckily I had a translator. A girl on my team, uh, who was from the Ukraine who spoke really good English. She helped translate. And of course I picked up some Polish as well. Um, I think my favorite thing to say, I kind of forgot what, how it. Now, but it was like, uh, I had to order water without carbonation gas. So that's, that's like my, my, one of my favorite. Bullish phrases that I would always say when I was there. So. Michael Huber 21:50 So how long were you in Poland for? Tonya Sims 21:53 I was in Poland for a year. Okay. Michael Huber 21:55 And then after Poland, Where did you head? Tonya Sims 21:59 Uh, after colon, I came back to the states and I, um, played for the Minnesota Lynx. And the WBA. Uh, I ended up getting caught though. Uh, And, uh, I mean, I was devastated by it because I had never been. I had never, ever been caught from a team before. So this is like the first. The first time that ever happened. Sure. And after that, and I was like, okay, I think it's time to retire now because I got cut. It was just because, um, I was just ready to do something. To do something different. Michael Huber 22:29 Yeah. I mean, it sounds like just based on your initial plans, like the idea that you wanted to go work. In the professional world in business. Was something you had planned on. So the idea that maybe it was time to move on, it doesn't sound like it was maybe as traumatic as it. Can be for some athletes. Tonya Sims 22:52 Right. Yes. Uh, I, I know a lot of athletes and this is very common. Um, Like after the, even like in high school, like maybe if you don't even go to play college or in college, I played four years and they don't play professionally. Um, It is devastating. You know, especially if they don't have, um, any type of a backup plan. Michael Huber 23:15 Yeah. I absolutely. I mean, you know, it's something I've. Learned a bit about through my. Studies and training, but it's something I've experienced myself, every athlete who plays. Is has to stop at some point. And that transition out, especially when you look at yourself. Your identity is so tied into your athletic. Participation. When it ends, it's like you have a really big. Jolt void to fill. Um, emotionally, socially. Right. All those things that we love about sports are gone and we have a lot of free time on our hands. And if you don't have a plan or you don't have a passion for something else, It can be really challenging. To try to make heads and tails of like, what do I do now? Um, so when you transition out, right, you get cut by the links. So like, what was like, what was like, what was it like then? Tell me about that sort of like right after that kind of how you went through the process of kind of saying, okay, this is what I'm going to do next. Tonya Sims 24:18 Yeah, well, I mean, it was a very different. Because I had, I, I had been playing basketball since I was five, you know, competitively. So I think it was like 25 when I got caught by the links. But. So it felt very different. And even though I felt like I was prepared to move on and do something different. Um, so it was a little bit like depressing, I think for me, Um, and, um, so after that though, I ended up working in sales for a couple of years. I did pharmaceutical sales. And, uh, I mean, it was, uh, I mean, I think that's a great job. They have at college, right. But it really wasn't what I wanted to do. I wasn't quite sure. Um, you know, I was more. Uh, confident in. My career path, like, you know, Coming out of college, but you know, going overseas for a little bit and playing pro ball. It kind of got a little bit like derailed, but. Um, Yeah. It wasn't like being in sales really? Uh, like professionally really. Wasn't what I wanted to do. Um, so I ended up. Transitioning out of my job, I moved to Chicago. Uh, and that's where I landed in the tech industry. And I was like, oh, this is it. This is my calling. So. That's Michael Huber 25:31 great. That's great. I mean, it really is hard, even for those of us who never played professionally. Right. You know? To find out what you like and what you want to do with yourself. Inner. You know, career capacity can be really hard. I mean, for me, this is, you know, my, my sports psychology degree, you know, I got in my early forties and, um, this is my second career as a mental performance coach. So I, I know like, you know, it's really hard to figure out what you want to be with. When you grow up, so the sooner you figure it out, But, you know, presumably the better off you're going to be and you know, you start to do different things and once you find your niche, then all of a sudden it's like, okay, now I have a purpose. Right? And then I'm moving towards building a new career. And I would imagine as time goes on, it gets a little bit easier and easier to transition away from. In your case basketball, and you start to put all your energy into, you know, into your, you know, Your tech profession, your, your, your professional life. Yeah. And Tonya Sims 26:28 that's one thing I have to commend you because a lot of people would be terrified to switch careers in their forties, even their thirties, who I remember like. Uh, this was when I was like one of my first tech jobs. Um, There was a coworker and he wanted to switch careers. He was like, in his early thirties, he was, he thought he was too old. I was like, that is that's insane. You. Um, so yeah, that's amazing Michael, that you were able to do that Michael Huber 26:53 well, to be totally transparent. I was terrified. Um, And it took me. It probably took me a good, like three years from the time I first contemplated it to the, to actually doing something about it. Like it took me like a good two or three years. So it was a really hard process. But I think to your point, it's never too late. The way I see it, it's never too late to do something that you really want to do once you, especially when you discover something that's really. Important to you. So I guess that's a good segue, right? Obviously you're in the tech world. You continue to be a software engineer, but you've also got another venture in the recruiting world. Can you tell us about that? Tonya Sims 27:34 Yeah. So, uh, I'm the owner operator of upper-level sports academy. And, um, what I do is I help parents, uh, in their athlet athletic children. Um, I help them. Make the recruiting process more enjoyable. Um, as well as, you know, helping them. Have a more successful journey as well. Um, so I have a program called rookie to recruit where I, uh, it's like, uh, A 60 day program. I walk parents through the process step by step. Uh, would you like your coaching once a week? Uh, and, uh, it's really just about like, um, you know, teaching them, uh, and, you know, kind of look about the ins and outs or other juicy secrets of the recruiting process from. You know how to email college coaches, uh, how to reach out to college coaches. Uh, on social media and this is all all for their, for their children, the, their, their child to be the one making communication with the college coach. Um, you know, how to, how an athlete can brand themselves. You know, because branding is very important. It's very important now. So. Yeah. Especially with the name, uh, name, image, likeness, and I L bill. That came out, uh, which is basically, uh, allowing athletes out of profit, off of their name, image, and likeness. So all that stuff is very important. Michael Huber 28:57 Yeah. And it's, it's uncharted territory in many ways, because it's so new, but the sooner you start that branding process. The better off, you're going to be for a lot of reasons, right? Not only for the purposes of establishing a reputation in the recruiting community, but also potentially from a business perspective. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of stake there and it's. You know, you. You know, as a coach and obviously, you know, we live in a world now where there's so many resources and there's so many coaches who do so many different things. I think there's a little bit of maybe a little bit of saturation or a little bit of fatigue from parents in the market. Um, you know, in terms of like all these, all these people out there, like, who do I choose? Like, why do I need a coach? Like what, how do you explain to the clients that you have your coaching clients? Like, how do you kind of explain to them, like, this is something that's important and how do you like make them feel comfortable that, you know, you're really going to be able to help them through that process. Yeah, Tonya Sims 29:56 that's a good question. Uh, The one, well, one of the things I really focus in on and hone in on is. Uh, the cost of college, right. Of a five-year education college would be, it takes most students now five years. Um, On average. Is about what like 70 grand, but in the long run, it could be, it could be as much as $400,000 with student loan interest. You know, so, um, I really hone in on that point. It's, you know, it's kind of like, you know, do you want. Your child to pay $400,000 over the course of, I don't know, their lifetime or, you know, would you want them to, you know, possibly win an athletic scholarship? And not everybody's going to want a scholarship. That's the thing. I mean, because those. Uh, are very, they are rare, but, um, what I also, uh, help with is like, for example, if maybe, uh, somebody's child goes like a NCAA division three school, right in division three schools in NCAA, they do not give athletic scholarships. But they do give athletic scholarships. If you don't get an academic scholarship. Let's say they have to pay for school while they're there is data out there. A lot of studies out there that athletes college athletes actually fare better than, uh, people who did not play college sports, like in terms of getting hired. Right. So it is a like return on investment. Like they get hired faster, they get in the management quicker. Um, so there's some data around that. Michael Huber 31:26 That's interesting and that, and that makes sense. I feel like I've seen some of that. Research or references to that. And I think there's a lot of truth that, I mean, just anecdotally having been spent most of my professional career in New York and Chicago, myself, You know, the, the, the networks that created that get created through athletics. You know, I went to college at so-and-so or we have this alumni association, or I played such and such for, with this person. And you know, there's a bunch of us are in this group at this firm. Right. Like it is a very strong bond that lasts. You know, for a very long time. And so to have those kinds of relationships and just being an athlete, I think is appealing right to employers because they know you have the discipline. And you've kind of been able to put in the work to do something that's really, really demanding. And so that's a signal to them that, you know, you might be more qualified to come into a rigorous work environment. So. I think absolutely. You know, that's, that's the case. Um, so your parents that you have, you have group coaching, you said like, Are there any things like what jumps out at you about the parents that. Choose to use your service? Like, is there a kind of a, are there just like trends or like, is there like overarching themes or is it sort of all all over the board? Tonya Sims 32:49 Yeah. I think the parents that I've worked with that went through my program, um, like. There. I just heard back actually from the parents, they like her son is getting actively recruited now by college coaches. Uh, and they're able to, uh, there. Child is able to build relationships with college coaches. Uh, like more like stronger. Relationships. That's one thing I teach my program. It's just kind of like life, like what you were saying earlier about getting a job who writes all about networking and building those strong relationships. Uh, and that's one thing that. Um, Recruits have to do is to build those relationships with those college coaches. So. Michael Huber 33:24 I, I couldn't agree with you more. I think communication is like the, a to me is the number one skill because it's one of the things that we have complete control over, right? If something is not working out the way that we wanted to, we have the choice to reach out and communicate with somebody about. What we want. How are we feeling to ask a question, right? Those are all things that are completely in our control. So if I'm putting on my, my sports psychology hat, like I always teach my athletes control the controllables, right? If you're not happy with the fact that you don't have offers, right, or you're not getting all for some schools that you want to be at, then you need to figure out. Where the gap is. And a lot of that is simply about asking questions. And being proactive in your communication. And I think. I mean. I don't want to kind of harp on the generational stuff now because of the world we live in. But I think any teenager is. Is challenged from a communication standpoint simply by virtue of being a teenager, right? Like. Can teenagers. Just don't communicate that well because that's who they are. And so what are some of the tips that you give the parents to help them help their children be better communicators and relationship builders? Tonya Sims 34:38 Yeah. So I would say the first thing is, uh, you know, college coaches. Strongly dislike helicopter parents. You know, they want to, they want to hear from that your, your, your athlete, like their child, and they want the child to be like an independent thinker. They want them to be assertive. Um, that's like one of the first things. Uh, and then, um, let's say like, I don't know. Um, Like, for example, if like a athlete was building a relationship with the coach on Twitter. Um, I think one mistake that I've seen is when like, recruits. Jump into an. Uh, coaches. Inbox or their DM, their direct message be fast. Like I, what I suggest is to build a relationship. First, so that may be liking some of the coaches tweets or like, you know, commenting on their commenting on their tweets for, so the coaches start getting on their radar, right? Like, oh, like, you know, who is this? Uh, and then, uh, you know, after that, I don't do it for a couple of weeks. And after that, and you know, you can jump into their direct message. So, you know, Hey coach, I'm so-and-so. You know, I played the score. Uh, you know, I've been following, you know, can you check out my highlight reel and like attach your stats and things like that. So, yeah. I Michael Huber 35:51 think that's, I think that's great advice, right? You're building awareness by engaging in social media, right. By liking or retweeting or right. Or commenting. And then they kind of see like, oh, who is this kid who's sort of coming and having a conversation with me. And then when you send that message, they know who you are, or at least they have some sense of who you are. And so I think that's great advice. I. But a couple of things that I've heard are one, just that the idea that, um, Parents who were trying to. To control the process or manage the process for the child are probably doing the, the. As a student athlete at disservice say how. I had Michigan state space ball coach on my podcast, Jake boss. And he told me exactly that I want the kid who's going to be able to come look me in the eye, have a conversation with me. Tell me what he's looking to achieve. You know, and I think any college coach. Um, is not gonna want to hear from the parent. They're going to want to hear from the athlete to say, Hey, is this athlete mature enough and committed enough to be, you know, To walk themselves through this process. I think that's really important. The other thing is I think resources, right? Like we have all these resources at our disposal. Are we. Are we using them like social media, like email, like whatever the case may be. I mean, What would you say some of the biggest challenges are for the parents that you have in your program? So like what's the hardest thing for them to wrap their head around. Well, that's a good Tonya Sims 37:24 question. I would say the hardest thing for them to wrap their head around is. Uh, I think the thing that stands out the most to me is kind of like, you know, letting they're letting they're letting their child go. You know, I guess, um, And letting their child like kind of be the leader and the leader of the process, like a college coach wants, they want leaders, right? I mean, Maybe it's bad to have all leaders on the team and that's a conversation for another time, but Michael Huber 37:50 right. Tonya Sims 37:51 I think that's like the hardest thing that I've seen, but most of my parents though are, I mean, They're totally on board with letting the, letting their child take the lead. And I think that's really important. Michael Huber 38:02 It comes up for me all the time. Now. My athlete clients are, tend to be a bit younger. They're high school age, but they're not yet in college, but yeah. What I find is that parents have a really hard time. Letting go with the rains and risking letting their child make a mistake. And so it's a really slippery slope because that spills over, I think, into performance as well, because one of the things I see a lot of with athletes from a performance perspective is. The fear of failure and the fear of making a mistake. And so that principals didn't apply and recruiting, right. If the kid feels like I don't want to take a mist and make a. Make a misstep in this process because it's going to hurt me. Then you might not take the risks, the calculated risks that are necessary to get that return on investment, which is that scholarship or, you know, a commitment from a school that you really liked that maybe is a step above where you think you should be, but you know what, I'm going to go after it. But if you don't try and you don't know how to do that, or the parents doing it for you, you're probably, you're probably hurting your chances of getting the result that you want, which has a lifelong implication to your point about finances. But I think it's also emotional, right? If we don't. If we have regrets about. Our college experience and we have regrets about our athletic experience and 20 years down the road. We don't resolve those. Right. And we're always looking back on what could have been like that affects our lives. You know, in the present moment. And I think a lot of people downplay that, but to get the most out of this recruiting process and say like, I did everything I could, even though maybe I fell on my face a couple times, I did everything I could to get the result. That was what I wanted. Like. There's no, there's no regret there. And so I think that's a hard thing for a lot of people to understand. I think they're very risk averse and they just want to make sure that everything's perfect and. Well put together. I can Tonya Sims 40:01 totally understand that. I mean, I don't have kids, but like my, all my, I have four. Our nieces and nephews, two nephews, two nieces, and they all played sports. Um, so I can definitely understand like how a mom or dad would feel. Um, but in terms of like the recruiting process, I mean, parents do have a role. Don't get me wrong. I mean, um, College coach wants to see that they, that, you know, their, the child comes from like a really good family. Um, you know, if their parents are supportive. Um, so I mean, they definitely do have a role in the problem, like a huge role in the process as well. So. Michael Huber 40:35 Yeah, of course. I mean, I think it's, it would be naive to say or unrealistic to think that parents aren't going to be involved. Right. They're part of the family unit, the parents. Are representative of the young athlete, particularly when they're still a minor before they get to college. Yeah, of course, but I think there's a fine line between, you know, Being totally hands-off and you know, being overbearing. And so I think a lot of times that's alive. Parents have a hard time kind of tiptoeing. So, I mean, I think it's great that you are. Somebody like you was out there helping them navigate the process because I hear it all the time. Like, people don't understand the recruiting processes, right? Like the rules are very complicated. Right. A lot of parents have never been down that road. If the mom or dad wasn't a college athlete. Right. And so, yeah, sometimes, you know, we need to enlist a guide to help us through that process. Especially if it's something that's really important to us. So to have people like you who were in there. You know, trying to help them get, educate them and feel like they're getting. The results that they want, I think is really is a really important thing. Um, I'm curious, like, Do you hear from, cause I hear this too. Um, Like, you know, there's obviously there's a lot of different opinions out there on social media and some of the Facebook groups and things that are out there. Like some parents will say, you don't need to do any of this stuff. You could figure it out on your own. Which I think is probably true, right? If you have the resources and the time, and you know, you can put it in, do it, but like, what would you say to a parent who said, like, I could do this on my own? Like, why would I hire you? I'm sure that comes. I'm sure that comes up from time to time. Yeah. Tonya Sims 42:16 It doesn't. I mean, Parents can totally do it on their own, you know, if they really want it to, I mean, There's tons of information on Google. Um, it's all over the place. So that's the thing. And what I do is I help centralize everything. Um, and I'm like, like I was saying early, I'm a guide, so I will help them get the results quicker, faster, a lot smoother. Michael Huber 42:38 Yeah. Tonya Sims 42:39 And, um, yes, there are a lot of rules. This recruiting process. I think there are, it gets worse every year. You know, with the, with the rules and things like that. Especially like with the transfer portal, uh, the transfer portal rule, which is. Make sure it makes your head hurt. Michael Huber 42:56 Does that have any impact on what it is that that you're doing? I have clients in that space. Tonya Sims 43:02 Not well, actually I do have a client who is, um, I don't work as much with international students, but, um, there was a young man who, whose parents, they came to me from Greece. He played, uh, he played basketball players. They plays basketball and the Greek national team. Uh, and he came over here to the states, uh, went to a D two in Florida. Um, and now he's in the transfer portal, so I'm kind of helping him through that process. As well, but, uh, the other thing about the transfer portal is. It could actually hurt high school athletes. Right. Because now instead of college coaches recruiting. You know, these phenomenal high school athletes, all we have to do now is go into the portal and pick a cut another college kids. So I kind of. Um, I kind of, you know, help parents. Do that process as well, like in terms of like helping their high school or their middle school athlete, you know, create a brand and, um, you know, create a, more of a unique value proposition and stand out. Michael Huber 43:58 That's a really great, that's a really great point because I mean, it will take college basketball. I mean, The transfer portal has kind of exploded. And a lot of the big name programs are going out and plucking kids from midmajors now who have proven themselves after a year or two. And they're saying, well, if I can get a proven midmajor player from another program, Well, I'll take that kid on as a scholarship player, rather than going out and offering a scholarship to, you know, somebody who's a high school player, because I don't know if they're not as. You know, as a, they're not a known quantity. Right. And so that only, um, enhances the need to stand out and to maybe change some of the branding and messaging. When you say, Hey, here's why you want to bring me on versus a transfer portal player. Right. You might not say that specifically, but that's the thinking process, right? Because there's more competition out there. Yes. Tonya Sims 44:55 Yeah. This transport will makes it very creates a very competitive landscape. And, um, you know, like I was saying earlier, uh, Now more than ever. Uh, athletes coming out of high school even before then they really. Um, Me to create a compelling story. Uh, and have a very strong brand. Yeah. Michael Huber 45:16 So what, uh, Just a couple more questions before I let you go. Uh, what effect can you talk about the effect COVID has had on what you do and what that, you know, how that sort of impacted. The world you live in in terms of helping families with the recruiting process. Tonya Sims 45:32 Sure. Yes. I actually started my business during the pandemic, um, because I. I have a little like friends of mine, you know, come to me. Um, and really in a pan panic mode, right? Because maybe there. Uh, their child was like a senior high school or like a junior high school. And they didn't know what was happening with their season or their season was canceled and they didn't have any film. Uh, so yeah, COVID is that, uh, has had, uh, Is that a big impact? Um, I look in terms of, um, like my, my business, because I started during the pandemic. Like, I don't really know how, how, what would have been before. Uh, the pandemic, I guess, but, um, I do see glimmers of hope though, like in terms of, you know, things getting better and you know, now here, at least in Wisconsin, you know, we, we, we did have sports this past, uh, I guess would be, have been this past winter and we have scores out for the kids. The spring. But the one thing I would encourage, uh, parents, um, to do is to, um, especially if they have like a junior or senior, make sure they get game film. Or practice film or something like they're going any film because that's like the biggest thing that I saw. Um, you know, when the pandemic happened, Um, when the parents were panicking is that they didn't have any film of their, of their child playing. Or competing. And so, um, and now more than ever, you know, college coaches. Are going to be recruiting. You know, via YouTube or video or Twitter. So it's like vital to have, um, any kind of film. I mean, even if it's, I mean, ideally game film is better. To create like a highlight reel, but even if they have practice film, that's better than, you know, nothing. So right. That's a Michael Huber 47:10 really good point. Yeah. I think a lot of people were scrambling this past year because they weren't getting the games under their belt. And so there's just not as much to share with coaches, right? You don't have that experience. So you've got to be creative in creating that, that real, that data to share with a coach when. You know, maybe it doesn't actually exist. You've got to manufacturer it somehow. Um, so that's a really good point. Uh, I guess the last question I would ask you is just. If there's one thing that you would leave with the listeners, the parents, the athletes who are listening coaches, like what's the one thing that you think is sort of the most important thing that people need to know about. The recruiting process. Tonya Sims 47:53 Why would say, um, You know, we are humans first, right? Like, uh, I feel like sometimes at some levels, like maybe at the NCAA division one level, I mean, it's more about like the sport and like wanting it. You know, because. College athletics does. Support the university in most. Cases, but, uh, you know, um, athletes are humans first. Uh, and then, um, you know, we are student athletes, right? The student comes before the athlete. So I definitely would say. Um, have a very strong emphasis on academics. Like no matter what level, I mean, even if you're like the star player, even if you're not star player somewhere in the middle, right. Um, you know, student, you are a student athlete. Uh, and then the athlete comes, you know, finally, like the athlete part comes, uh, last, but I would definitely say like, um, you know, if you are going through the recruiting process, maybe you feel like the college coach or the program doesn't support that then. Um, you know, maybe. You can start looking elsewhere. So. That's Michael Huber 48:58 great. Well, listen. I really appreciate you coming along and spending some time to talk about. Your experiences as applier and as a professional. And now as somebody who's working in the recruiting space, I think it's been a great lesson. Hopefully will be a great lesson for everybody who. You know, uh, tunes in and, um, hopefully we can, we can do it again sometime soon. So I just want to thank you for being a guest on the podcast and, um, good luck with everything. Yeah, Tonya Sims 49:26 thank you for having me, Andrew and myself. Thank you. Michael Huber 49:28 Thank you, Tanya. That was great. Yeah. Thank you. Tonya Sims 49:36 Yeah. Michael Huber 49:37 It can be. It can be, you know, I, I try to make it as informal as possible because I think there is like a tendency sometimes to be like, okay, like, how am I going to answer this question? Um, so yeah, it can be nerve wracking. I was nervous too. When I first started now, I'm sort of just like Tonya Sims 49:54 your bones. Good. Is that, that you're a pro at this now. I've recorded. This'll be like this 16th Michael Huber 50:02 episode that I've recorded 16, 17. So yeah, it's been a few. Um, and I love it. I've really like gotten comfortable with it and I want to keep doing these. I think it's a great platform. To be honest with you to like educate people. You know, it's good for marketing obviously, and it's good too. Build awareness, but I think it's just a great way to, for people to learn through having a conversation. Right. And so, um, I'm just trying to find more ways to kind of get it out there, but I, I see a lot of room for growth in it and that like, there's a lot of people in the recruiting space. There's coaches, I'm trying to get more athletes as long as I like their perspective, but also some of the other stuff, I, the strength and conditioning and the. You know, Maybe some of the, more of the, like more traditional mental health and all these different specialists to sort of weigh in on this process of, you know, what's it like to go from high school to college because it's just so. It seems so different now in terms of the pressure and the, the expectations and like, you know, everybody's like all geared up and you're competing and like, how do I do this the right way? And how do I feel comfortable that I made a good choice in survive? You know? Tonya Sims 51:11 Yeah, youth sports is actually worth more than NFL football and in NBA, basketball than mine now. Michael Huber 51:16 I mean, I have, my kids are 13 and 11 and you know, I, the amount of money I spend for, you know, my two kids on sports in a year, it's. You know, it's, it's absurd. When I was a kid I'd signed up for literally, they gave me a Jersey and a hat. You know, when I bought a pair of pants and I went and played, you know, I. Now it's like, you know, we're spending thousands and thousands of dollars and it's good in some ways, but it's also, it puts a lot of pressure on the parents to re I think to your point about scholarships. I think there's a lot of pressure to recoup the investment. So they're looking for scholarships to send like, Hey, we've spent all this time and money over the last 10 years, 15 years. Like, I want to get my money back. Like, what the hell are we doing it for which in turn, then the pressure goes on to the kid. And if it doesn't go the way you want. Two. Then it's like it's mass chaos. So I think people are understanding too, that they need help. You know, and I'm a big believer in that. I do like people like us, whatever, you know, whoever's out there helping people. I mean, there's plenty of providers, but find somebody who can help you. You know, that's, that's my thinking. And that's why I like having people like you on, so yeah. Well, Tonya Sims 52:23 let me know if you need me to continue. Connect you with anybody. Like through your podcasts. Like I, um, I've got a friend, Tony Simmons, he played, uh, uh, NFL football for the Patriots and for Canadian football league and his coach all over. I just sat in on a talkie. Did. Uh, I think it was last week on mental health, he talked about his mental health journey. It was a very Michael Huber 52:45 truly, Tonya Sims 52:45 yeah, it was very interesting. Um, I, uh, it just, it blew me away. I mean, I, I mean, I can definitely relate to a lot of things. He was saying. Too, but yeah, it was. You know, we talked a lot, a lot about like, you know, what happened when his career ended and things like that. So, yeah, I can. I mean, let me know if you need me to connect you with. Michael Huber 53:03 Did he go to school at Wisconsin? Tonya Sims 53:05 Good actually. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Huber 53:06 I remember his name. Tonya Sims 53:07 Cause I don't Michael Huber 53:08 think we're. Yeah. I don't think we're too far apart. I graduated in 97. Tonya Sims 53:13 Yeah. Graduated high school or college? Michael Huber 53:15 College? Yeah, Tonya Sims 53:16 I graduated in oh two. So again, we were like, Michael Huber 53:18 okay. Tonya Sims 53:19 Some of the same age. Yeah. Yeah. And he, he graduated in yeah. He graduated in like 98. Yeah. Michael Huber 53:25 That's how I remember the thing I probably was at one of the football games. Tonya Sims 53:30 Which is small roads, you and this whole sports space, you know, Michael Huber 53:34 So what, what is his, like, what is he like? Is he like a speaker now? Like what's his, what's his career look like? Tonya Sims 53:39 Yes. She owns a company called six point athletics. Uh, and he, uh, he trained the athletes actually. Okay. So it kind of go well with, you know, what you're doing. He trains athletes. Uh, like, you know, um, sports, physical training. That's type of thing. Um, yeah, so that's what he's been doing for awhile. Michael Huber 53:57 If you, um, always looking for guests. So if you're comfortable making that connection, I would love that. That'd be amazing. Yeah, I Tonya Sims 54:03 would definitely do that. Michael Huber 54:04 Thank you. You're Tonya Sims 54:05 welcome. All Michael Huber 54:06 right. Give me the big plans for the weekend. Tonya Sims 54:08 Uh, well, it's going to be 90 here. So I, my niece is with me now. My she's 11 and she sees that she actually plays. She's a pitcher on her softball team. So I think I'm going to go out here just right now with her and those. You know, balls around. Michael Huber 54:22 Take Tonya Sims 54:22 her to the beach tomorrow. So Michael Huber 54:24 excellent. Yeah, it sounds wonderful. Tonya Sims 54:26 Yep. Michael Huber 54:27 I hope you have a great one to help you. Have fun. Tonya Sims 54:29 All right. Yeah, you too, Michael. Thank you so much. Michael Huber 54:31 Thanks, Tanya. Tonya Sims 54:31 Okay. Talk Michael Huber 54:32 soon. Tonya Sims 54:33 Bye.